DaveG38

Here's the reverse.

Hi, Any views on what I should expect to sell this Philip silver coin for? Its 1732, 2 reales (I think) and is really quite nice, albeit probably only Good fine. Obverse on this post, reverse on the next.

A final thought. It looks like there 's an Obv 2a for 1903, 1904 and 1906, so logic says there might be one for 1905? Anyone willing to check theirs to see? PS: Thanks to Gary D for confirming the 1905 Obv 1 type.

1949 Threepence, Thanks for this. I followed the link to Michael Gouby's website, but didn't scroll all the way down the page. Smack on wrist and write 100 times 'I must look more thoroughly in future.'

Hi all, At the risk of going into anorak mode, can I just clarify our collective understanding about these Edward VII shillings? As I see it there are: 1902 - Obv 1 1903 - Obv 1 and Obv 2a (as newly defined) 1904 - Obv 1 and Obv 2 1905 - Obv 2 with Obv 1 reported by Davies but unconfirmed. 1906 - Obv 1, Obv 2 and Obv 2a (the latter as found by Onewebby) 1907- 1910 - all Obv 2. Somewhere in this thread there is mention of a 1904 with Obv 2a, but no reference to where this came from. Its not on the Michael Coins website, so I wondered if anybody can enlighten me as follows: 1. Is there an identified Obv 2a for 1904? 2. Can anybody confirm an Obv 1 for 1905? 3. Does my list above represent the known state of tis series or is there anything else lurking about? Thanks.

Reference the 1940 penny, it certainly looks like a double exergue line type, but it may be the way the light strikes it that makes it appear so. The other test that you can try in hand, but isn't visible in the picture, is to check whether the waves above the line actually sit on the line or are slightly above it. If on it, then its a single exergue type. If above it then its a double. Now the 1939 is interesting, but not for the reason you have posted. Basically, there are two minor types of 1939 penny, one where the second '9' tapers to a point and one where it has a rounded end. Yours appears to be rounded, as it seems to differ from the first '9' which is pointed. Assuming my interpretation of the photos is correct, then yours is a rounded '9' type which is rather scarcer than the pointed '9'. However, it may just be that wear makes it look thatw ay - you need to judge it in hand to be sure.

Whilst I agree entirely with the general principle of not cleaning coins, for fear of doing irreparable damage to them, I guess it really doesn't matter too much with decimal bronze. After all none has anything much other than their face value, so a bit of cleaning probably won't do too much harm. I don't have any particular product that I would recommend. However, for cleaning brass/copper in general Hydrochloric acid is extremely effective, but real care is needed to handle it. A 10% solution in water works well at removing surface tarnish - its VERY important that you add the acid to the water and not the other way round. You also need to make sure that you don't breathe in the fumes for the concentrated acid as this is dangerous to your lungs. It's also important not to get it on your skin, or you won't have any!!! Hydrochloric Acid is available commercially as 'Spirits of Salt' from ironmongers. I use it for cleaning brass at home e.g. door furniture, prior to polishing. If all this puts you off then there is an ad on TV for Cillit Bang, which shows a decimal penny being dipped in the product and coming out brightly cleaned. I've never tried it, so I can't say how accurate the ad is, but might be worth trying.

Ah, I see what you are getting at. The gaps you are referring to in the Freeman number scheme are the special bronze proofs for those years. For me, these are not strictly varieties but different strike qualities using different dies for the same year.

I can't see any reference to varieties of the 1954 and 1955 farthings in Freeman?????? CCGB has 1954 665 1955 667 1956 669 and i know of the 2 ruim thicknesses in 1954 I don't wish to be pedantic, but I don't think that Freeman mentions any varieties for the 1954 or 1955 farthings. The rim thickness types for 1954 were mentioned recently on this forum, but I can't see any reference to any 1955 varieties. Can you say what the identifiers are?

I can't see any reference to varieties of the 1954 and 1955 farthings in Freeman??????

I too find Rendel's prices (and grades) a little beyond my expectation. However, don't let your fantasies about Megan go too far. (S)he's actually David Mason, who used to be World Coins in Canterbury, but who took himself off to Spain a few years ago. I think he called himself Megan after his daughter. and here was me fondly thinking Megan was a tall leggy blonde female....... .....curses, foiled again If she's his daughter then she might be a tall leggy blonde. However, David is ginger haired, so maybe strawberry blonde is nearer the mark Keep up the fantasy!!

I too find Rendel's prices (and grades) a little beyond my expectation. However, don't let your fantasies about Megan go too far. (S)he's actually David Mason, who used to be World Coins in Canterbury, but who took himself off to Spain a few years ago. I think he called himself Megan after his daughter.

I too have one of these so called '1' 20 pences. Attached is a quick scan of mine - apologies, but the quality isn't that good. What you can't see, but is absolutely clear under a glass is that there is a die crack running from the apparent '1' through the design to the point I indicate with the arrow. Also, when you examine the '1' it is obvious that its just an elongated splash of metal and isn't in any way a design feature. The '1' is also in very low relief with weak edges which is what you might expect as a result of a die flaw or crack. Incidentally, this example also shows the so-called bump on the lion's knee. The mint do seem to have had problems with the 2008 20p don't they?

Personally, I can take an interest in design errors or overdates etc. as these are part and parcel of the minting process. So I can appreciate the error 20p etc. However, I do draw the line at one off errors where the planchet is clipped or where the wrong blank was fed into the machine or whatever. To me these are akin to 'seconds' quality goods. But everyone to their own - whatever turns them on.

When I was researching varieties for my book on 20th C Bronze, I too tried to find any identifiers for these types, but I am afraid that only Peck seemed to make reference to them in any detail. A couple of other points that may help. Firstly there is also a sharp/rounded pair for 1949 - not mentioned by Peck. Secondly, all the sharp corner types are reported to have a slightly thinner rim than the rounded ones. However, on worn specimens this may not be easy to spot. The only other differentiator is for the 1941 where there are two minor varieties of the sharp corner type, one where the inside corner is sharp and the other where it is rounded.

Freeman doesn't say very much about this coin. You are right that its Obv 3 Rev B. According to Freeman there are two types, one in copper and the other in Cupro-nickel. The copper is rated as R17 whilst the Cupro-nickel is R18. R17 is defined as 16-50 existing, whereas R18 is 6-15. Otherwise nothing else. I don't have a copy of Peck at the moment, so can't say what it says about these coins.

I've just been reading an older version of 'British Coins Market values' that I own, came across the following paragraph and wondered if anybody can shed some light on what it means. Alternatively, tell me what is so obvious that I'm missing it! The article I am quoting from is about the Royal Mint and the minting process. 'A high-energy burnishing machine was also installed to improve the quality of blanks, as was equipment that implants security devices in coins.' What security devices? Are they all chipped?? For dating purposes the article is talking about new equipment installed in the late 1990s.

That's how I started out, collecting from change, 40 years ago. I would love to have been around in those days of circulating lsd. Not that you had that long. It would have been good to have been 12 about 1950, with about 20 good years of collecting from change, possible I may be wrong, Gary, but I would bet that only the older bronze remained in active circulation, and that you hardly ever got older (say pre 1920) silver in your change. Not sure why I say that ~ just a strange hunch. Did you ever get a pre 1860 young head penny from your change ? Hi 1949threepence, I'm not quite of an age where I got a prolonged run at coins from change, but when I was 16 in 1966 I worked for J Lyons teashops during my school holidays and was often employed on the till in the tea shop so I saw a lot of pre-decimal coins on a daily basis. I was also able to swap interesting coins for my fledgling collection, which was fun. However, decimalisation was coming by then and most of the interesting stuff was already gone from change, but not all. You are certainly right that pre-1920 silver material was non-existent - I don't recall getting any. Even pre-1947 was scarce, especially for the 1920s and was always in well worn condition. I never saw any silver Edward VII or Victoria coins. Victorian pennies in completely worn out state were fairly easy to find with pretty much only the date left on them, but they were still thrilling because of their age. Just three gems I found over as many years. First was a 1890 penny in at least GVF maybe NEF. The second was an 1866 Jersey 1/13 shilling in EF, but totally black, not a hint of lustre. I think whoever gave it to me thought they were passing off a foreign coin and getting away with it. The third one was quite extraordinary. A man came in, bought a cup of tea for 6d and gave me a GVF 1826 George IV shilling in payment. I looked at it said, 'what the hell's this then' or something similar. The guy then said 'well its a shilling,' so I shrugged and put it in the till. Later on, I exchanged it for a modern shilling and it still has its place in my collection along with the two above. Its not in the highest of grades, nor is it an uncommon date, but I think it was the trigger for my collecting coins at that time, something I left off during the 1970s and 80s and picked up again in the 90s.

hopefully this link works 1916 penny It certainly looks like a recessed ear type, but as you say the broken tooth is difficult to see on the photo.

whats F167? F167 is a rare bronzed proof - its R19 so I wouldn't bother looking on eBay for one!

Scott, There are 13 minor types of low tide penny and just two for the high tide type, all based on the size, shape and pointings of the 0, 9 and 2 in the date. I have to say this is new to me. And having learned it, I really can't say I'm very much excited either. I believe many collectors have quite a low interest threshold for these very minor pointing varieties, as witness the almost total apathy towards : 4 different types of 1957 'calm sea' halfpenny various 1937 reverses 1928 silver 1905 penny reverses It's my own opinion that the more distinguishable a variation is, or the rarer it is, the more likely it is to become popular - which would explain the 1909 penny, the 1915 farthing, the 1920 penny (all hard to distinguish but rare). I did actually communicate with the seller of the 1903 penny ("Returns Not Accepted") to ask if he would make an exception as the picture wasn't clear enough to "tell which of two types it was". He replied saying I was "confusing the 1903 with the 1902 - there's only one type of 1903". I didn't push it, in case he started looking through reference books and relisting the item... Peckris, I may have written about them in my book on 20C bronze varieties, but I did so only in order to clarify what all the different features were as defined by the different authorities and publications. When you do this its very difficult to draw the line on what to include and what to leave out. In the end inclusion always wins if only because the moment you publish something, somebody will tell you that you've left something out. So far so good for my book! Nobody is shouting so far. Beyond that I am pretty much overwhelmed by indifference, cos as you say, so what if there are 13 types all slightly different. At the end of the day its a low tide penny!

Scott, There are 13 minor types of low tide penny and just two for the high tide type, all based on the size, shape and pointings of the 0, 9 and 2 in the date.

Gary, You are quite right about the progressive nature of die faults of various kinds and the fact that they throw up a wide range of 'varieties.' When I was researching the 20C bronze types, I came across references to a whole load of die cracks, broken dies and filled dies of varying degrees of severity, all of which lead to what might be described as varieties. The trouble is that they go on ad infinitum. I took the view that it was best to concentrate on those which arose through either deliberate design change, enforced design changes (e.g. where a die became damaged) and only to include faults of the kind mentioned above where collectors/dealers have 'decided' to label a particular type a variety e.g. the 1946 dot penny. Was I right? I don't know, but it seemed to me to make sense at the time. I have wondered whether to describe all these damage types in a separate book but I rather think it might have an even smaller appeal than the existing one!

Do try to persuade ChrisP to include it in CCGB! I've tried but so far, no luck (oh well, time will tell...). I did persuade Spink to include it in the Standard Catalogue, so that's good at least. Peckris, Chris has a copy of my book and I am happy for him to include any of the varieties I have described, either in CCGB or the new 'Peck.' I guess its up to him what he wants to include. One issue through is what constitutes a 'genuine' variety and what has been accepted as one, even though its technically arisen as a flaw. It may be that Chris only wants to include those types which have arisen through design changes or where dies have been repaired following damage.

Hi Scott, Second plug for my book, which explains all the identified characteristics of 20C coins where there are known varieties. What I have done is taken the differing identifiers from a wide variety of sources and matched them up so that all the characteristics for a type are listed, together with extensive photographs. The idea is to allow collectors of 20C bronze to identify with certainty any varieties they have, rather than have to try and reconcile the different descriptors from different sources, something which is confusing to say the least. I have also included the descriptors of the very minor types (what I call minor varieties) where these have been reported. There are a surprising number of these for some dates. I have also included the flaws in coins which have become varieties in their own right in the eyes of collectors. e.g. the 1946 penny with an extra dot.