pokal02

Bidding seemed very high to me - started with ambitions to reduce my seven missing groats to five, but wasn't even the underbidder on my two. (Someone got the Richard III York groat in GF for £5,200 - so why did they let the Motcomb and DNW specimens, both AVF, go for £5,000 earlier this year?) Were people paying over the odds for the Stewartby provenance? It wasn't only groats - even indifferent hammered 1d's were going at four figures (don't know enough to know how rare they were). Oh well, on to DNW. 12 Dec...... Did anyone on here get anything at a reasonable price?

I don't suppose anyone has a spare copy of St James Auction 9 (Rowley Butters collection) , or can point me in the direction of one? (I'm interested in the Charles I Pattern 'crown' - this seems to be the only auction sale of one this century).

Catalogues are often very slow to catch up with reality - 1728 and 1731 crowns, neither of which exist, were listed in Coin Year Book (and possibly elsewhere) until at least the 70's. They were given values only about 20% more than the other George II YH crowns.

70-100K for an 1834 crown anyone? If that goes at even low estimate, the world's surely gone mad... (nothing for me in this one, I'm looking at a couple in Spink the week before)

i spend more time chasing than looking at acquired examples, but certainly get satisfaction from both. Incidentally I also started out with the aim of one of each milled denomination & date in any grade (except gold).I started with the coppers got down to 2 or 3, then started 3d's including maundy (managed about 70%)but lost interest in the lower denominations once I started on crowns, although I later diversified into hammered groats and pennies.

Thanks Rob, both items added to my wish list.

Back to crowns - the Cooper sale is quoted in a couple of dealers lists as being 'Glendinning 24/10/73'. Is this correct? I have this catalogue (unless there were 2 sales on that date) but can't see Cooper mentioned anywhere (it's mostly Charles II Crowns in my catalogue).

I was busy on the auction day, so left a bid of 160 for a James I shilling estimated at 80-100. Logged on last night and found it was unsold - the estimate had been revised to 300-350!! (would I have got it for 180 - 60% of low estimate?)

Mine arrived on Wednesday, although my shipping info also hadn't been updated.

DNW have always been good - haven't got my one win (Bristol groat) yet but confident it will arrive on Tuesday. LCA took 8 days last time, but at least for the first time I got an e-mail & tracking no. from them prior to delivery - have previously just had to sit & wait for up to 2 weeks!

I think Egbert, Edward Martyr, Harthacnut and Harold II would be the four most rare/expensive.

Splashed out on the 1642 Oxford crown, which although I thought a little worse than the advertised VF is still much better than mine, only 3 to go now to get every crown up to AF-F (1665, 1675 and 1678).

Thanks for the replies, will probably take the gold membership route and submit at Coinex, this fits nicely as I have four proof crowns I'd like slabbed (not in favour of slabbing circulated coins at present). .

A couple of points: PCGS' website seems to imply that coins can only be submitted in person by prior appointment - would this apply to the London Fairs? Where are coins submitted in London graded - if it is in the US, there would potentially be VAT/Customs duties to pay on their return (I assume this would not apply to PARIS while we are still in the EU)

It's stretching it to even call them coins if they can't be used in payment for anything. I'd quite welcome the introduction of the £5s into circulation - £5 notes seem very difficult to obtain (mostly because the ATM's only give out £10/20) and there is a need for a circulating value between £2 & £10. (Actually I'd rather have a circulating £5 than the £2)

A lot of crowns on there some of which would be nice upgrades for me. Will prioritise depending on if I spend anything between now & 4th Sept.

I'd toyed with the idea of sending three or four of my higher value Proof crowns to be slabbed, but this looks a non-starter now (I don't want to slab the bulk of my collection).

There is a 1697 crown coming up at Heritage (11 Aug) stated to be 'VF35'. (usually stated to be an English Fine but I'd say this one is at least GF). I think it's the second best I've seen after the van Roekel specimen. I suspect it will stay States-side given the recent depreciation of the pound against the dollar (and that the live bidding seems to be about 2:30 am UK time).

I've read in a couple of places recently that Crowns ceased to be in general circulation 'after the end of the 19th century'. I think this must be too early - what do others think? Judging from the average grades of Vic OH specimens, many of them must surely have circulated for some years into the two following reigns. I'm assuming that they gradually withered away like the farthing which wasn't withdrawn until 1961, although last issued in 1956 - with possibly the switch to .500 silver in 1920 driving the last ones out. I've never seen the 1902's described as purely commemorative either.

There are enough F & VF wreaths around to suggest that some may have seen limited circiulation. I've seen a couple of worn 1937's too. On the other hand the absence of a 1911 Crown indicates,that they'd discounted the crown as a circulating medium by then. Presumably when no one had seen one for 10-15 years they became difficult to use (like Scottish notes in England).

I'd definitely agree with under 5 in EF. The Van Roekel coin was stated to be the only one in EF at the time. Outside museums, I'd be surprised if there were five in a 'proper' VF. and would say the same about 1665. . .I base my overall guess on the likelihood that I have seen/heard about less than 50% of the actual specimens. As well as those in museums and life time collections, there will be others e.g. those sold on websites I don't look at (I only discovered Heritage 2 years ago) and any sold by dealers with no web presence (e.g. Graeme Monk, Paul Davies of Birmingham), and auctions I don't know about/subscribe to. 1666 elephant - again a total guess but maybe 150- 200? I'd say about three of them turn up for every 1665 or 1697 that does. My impression is that their average grade is a little better than most Crowns of the 1660's - perhaps some were set aside/collected even back then? .

I've probably seen or heard about 25 or so in 30 years, so allowing for ones in lifetime collections/museums and ones that have appeared that I've missed say between 60-100? It's a pure guess though. I used to think 1665 was even rarer, seeing/hearing about only three between 1980 (when I started collecting crowns) and 2004 but then quite a few more have turned up since, although all in low grades. Again I now know of 20 or so specimens so guess there are perhaps between 50-80 existing, ,

1697's seem to be overgraded more than most coins (human nature when a GF Is theoretically worth a few thousand more than an NF?- I need an upgrade and would settle for a 'proper' F, but all those I've seen recently graded F, GF and even VF (yes Corbetts Auctions, I'm talking about you) are only NF or AF. It's close as to whether that or 1665 is the most difficult (after 1674) but the most under-rated is probably 1669. I've probably seen fewer of those than 1697's in the past 10 years.

Yes, it'S interesting to see how crowns stopped circulating so much in the 18th cent in that William & Mary/William III crowns are more common in in Fair/VG/NF than Fine & better George I & II's are harder to find below F than above it (other than possibly 1716) and Annes are probably somewhere in between (the Edinburgh ones are usually quite worn but the others are about as common in F & better as below F).

I'd broadly agree with the George II rankings. The '51 isn't as rare as sometimes suggested but is still the hardest to find. I'd probably have that exact order although can't really split '34 and '35 nor '41 and '43. How about George Ist?The 1716 is the easiest - in fact I might go in date order with 1726 the hardest, although again the last 4 are quite hard to split?