Coinery

Have you read about the ghost of Matthew Boulton on it? Pffft. That's nothing. I saw Jesus in a Big Mac I AM John Lennon, and he was even better than Jesus...Oh, no, don't get the press going again! I AM Mark Chapman. Don't answer your doorbell, ok? I'd have to sign your album first, and I'm not going to fall for that old stunt again! But you went back to Yok - oh, stunt. You said stunt. Ya got me!

'Kin hell! Edit: this is what I meant by grade! What a fabulous piece of hammered history that is! I'm always surprised to find so many people either disinterested, or shying away from, such an exciting coinage! It ticks all the boxes really...size, weight, history, numismatic mystery, discovery, etc. etc. Boy oh boy!

This will kill a few birds with one stone. Below is my 'Hartlebury'. By the OL of CAROLVS you can see a lion. This only appears on York coinage. To the left of it on the inner circle is the remains of the sword and another example shows the flaw between Charles' foot and the 3rd leg to be a foot and spurs. Clearly this is a York die, and appears to be the 1A die pair, but I can't confirm yet. This creates a problem for Besly's article on the York coinage in the 1984 BNJ where he states that the equipment used at York involved the use of a cylinder press with the dies engraved on the cylinder. The evidence for the shillings is quite compelling with 5 discrete die pairs and 5 pairs which appear to be rotated by one die. The same cannot be said for halfcrowns as my 2F is clearly a re-engraved die (details to follow), coupled with the fact that some die pairs are common whilst others are out and out rare. I suspect the rare ones are recut dies, such as the 2F. There is also evidence that some of the W/SA dies are ex- York dies. Clearly you cannot take a bit of the cylinder, so the assumption must be that the equipment either had some sort of clamping arrangement to hold a number of dies, or they were used as individual pairs. This also throws a spanner in the works regarding the attribution of Hartlebury which is considered to be struck in 1646 as there is no way the dies would havve been removed from York by July 1644 and lain unused for nearly 2 years. Also, the siege at Hartlebury only lasted a day, and Worcester wasn't cut off at this point which isn't favourable for a siege coinage. A somewhat larger spanner is the fact that the 'Hartlebury' dies are recut to form the CHST below the horse Chester issue, whose obverse was recut to form the Chester declaration obverse which is dated 1644. 1646 it ain't. 'Hartlebury' it ain't either. The pear/3 pears marks are I believe, gerbs. The obverse has only one stalk, but the reverse 'pears' have 3 stalks. The pears are lion paw/claw punches as seen at York. I think the HC coins are probably Hawarden Castle, and were struck to pay the troops returning from Ireland in Dec. 1643 because there is documentary evidence that Byron arranged for all these troops to be paid 2/6d for each common soldier (they hadn't been paid for 2 years previously). Hawarden is 4 or 5 miles to the west of Chester on the road from the landing points at Mostyn etc. Anyway, enough spanners for the time being - to the 2F next Unfortunately, I'm unable to comment on the historical data, as yet, but the HC series of C1 would be another logical step for me at the end of the year, they've always felt like a serious bit of silver, very nice in the hand, I wish I still had some! I'm thinking C1 HC's and Mary are on the winter cards for another numismatic adventure? Where does the literature begin for the HC coins?

Pray tell, I have a fake 1905 half crown and wish I knew what points it out as a fake. From what I gleaned on this very forum, there's a small break in the R of EDWARDVS that is the prime giveaway on many of them. But there may be other flaws on those from other sources? Are you certain that this only appears on fakes? I have seen more 1905 halfcrowns with the defect on the R of EDWARDVS, than without. The EF example in the Andrew Scothern collection (being auctioned by DNW later this month) also has the defect. The only giveaway of fakes that I'm aware of is the wonky I of QVI on the reverse. Are the fakes Silver, and the right weight? This is the sort of detail the forgery website needs if it's going to be useful.

Hammered coin dies were just a piece of diestock with the design engraved on the end. When a new design was required, all they did was rub down the old one and re-engrave with the new. A die could therefore have many re-incarnations. Sometimes there was sufficient detail remaining from the previous die(s) to work out what it was before, so the Chester declaration reverse die was previously Oxford halfcrown 1643 rev. 23 for example. It also appears to have been one of the small date 1644 dies too, but I'm still working on that one. The obverse die with which the declaration reverse is paired was recut from the CHST below the horse die, but the re-engraving was rotated and displaced from the original, so we can be certain that the die was of a greater diameter than that of a halfcrown because they wouldn't have engraved only half the design with the remainder off the side of the die! Next coin up would be a crown, but equally could have been big enough to accommodate a triple unite or a pound/half-pound. It also explains why some dies are far too big for the denomination on which they are found. A Shrewsbury shilling reverse and Oxford halfcrown 1645 rev.7 immediately spring to mind. That's really interesting Rob, and something I'll be looking out for in future. You'd have to have some staggering grades to spot it though! A good comparison/example of your point would be very welcome if you get five minutes spare?

I think it all comes down to an attempt to best describe the grade of your coin, using contemporary descriptors, as best as you can. Ultimately, it doesn't matter whether you're buying two VF coins (in your opinion), one from a dealer, described as NVF, and one from eBay, described as GEF, you still have to decide for yourself what you have, and whether you're pleased with it. You won't find out whether you bought well until you come to sell it. When it comes down to selling a coin, it's very difficult in a world now full of UNCs, not to use the term yourself. 95% of coin collectors probably still rely on someone else to tell them what grade their coin is, which means if my coin is better than someone else's 'UNC' and I call it a GEF or AU, it's never even going to get looked at! Personally, I 'm still trying to be true to my own standards, but it doesn't line the pockets so well!

Interesting re crown-sized dies for halfcrown designs, something I'd never considered before! Oh, and another nice example coin again!

No online bidding that I know of, you'd be crazy to distance bid at Croydon. From the two visits I've made, I'd say the grading's very ambitious, and major flaws are largely overlooked in the descriptions! I'd be there every time, however, if I lived on the doorstep as you do!

In theory, forgerynetwork.com should be a place to consult for such things. But I have to admit that I've not posted anything there for a while and I really don't know how many people are aware it exists .. I tried making use of forgery network on a number of occasions, and mostly gave up in frustration. The principle's great, but the actuality is less than satisfactory! Also, it's really hard to trust the additions on a site like that...who verifies? I bought an Elizabeth I coin recently, that was being sold as a contemporary counterfeit of a threepence. How gutted was I to find it was actually a very knackered, but genuine, halfgroat!

I'm holding a 1905 shilling of John's which looks very good, outside of super-macro photography! Regular photos wouldn't expose it, it's that good!

Have you read about the ghost of Matthew Boulton on it? Pffft. That's nothing. I saw Jesus in a Big Mac I AM John Lennon, and he was even better than Jesus...Oh, no, don't get the press going again! I AM Mark Chapman. Don't answer your doorbell, ok? I'd have to sign your album first, and I'm not going to fall for that old stunt again!

Have you read about the ghost of Matthew Boulton on it? Pffft. That's nothing. I saw Jesus in a Big Mac I AM John Lennon, and he was even better than Jesus...Oh, no, don't get the press going again!

Pretty cool, though I'm not sure how comfortable that sofa would be! I just hope they went through all the coins first to pick out any rarities before they trashed them. I somehow think the world will not run dry of washers to utilise. The results are not unattractive. I must admit to only giving the scrap pile a cursory check, mainly for the odd better quality coin. I'm certainly not going to check every washer for rare dates or varieties before they get consigned to the pot, and past experiences on ebay suggest people are reluctant to even pay a quid for 100 meaning they can't be bothered to search either. Saving the planet from un-necessary mining activity is the next best thing. You do make me smile, Rob! I'm just so, so, glad you don't take this whole thing too seriously! I couldn't take you seriously otherwise! :-) As I approach my fourth birthday, I'm thinking of settling down a bit and becoming more responsible. But I will draw the line at checking washers.

Pretty cool, though I'm not sure how comfortable that sofa would be! I just hope they went through all the coins first to pick out any rarities before they trashed them. I somehow think the world will not run dry of washers to utilise. The results are not unattractive. I must admit to only giving the scrap pile a cursory check, mainly for the odd better quality coin. I'm certainly not going to check every washer for rare dates or varieties before they get consigned to the pot, and past experiences on ebay suggest people are reluctant to even pay a quid for 100 meaning they can't be bothered to search either. Saving the planet from un-necessary mining activity is the next best thing. You do make me smile, Rob! I'm just so, so, glad you don't take this whole thing too seriously! I couldn't take you seriously otherwise! :-)

Pretty cool, though I'm not sure how comfortable that sofa would be!

I don't put all my eggs in one basket I still like the pub Talking of which, I'm off right now!

I wish things could have stayed that way: it would have made things a lot easier. I guess it still wouldn't have been easy, as you would then be required to choose between a matt-coloured, uninspiring-looking, Fine, and a weakly-struck UNC, which would likely have that bejewelled look of a lustred coin. Even beneath a deep tone, the full-lustred coin is supremely prettier, and a far nicer coin! Which would you choose, how much more would you pay for that?

I'll give you 50p for it!

Some ripe Stilton before you go to bed, with a Spink as your bedside read. That should do it! Ahhh, that'll be it, I've been drinking a bottle of port every night! Alchy lol. I only have penthouse at the side of my bed and an old sock So THAT's where you store your coin collection! So THAT'S how you get that nice old cabinet tone, you old scallywag!

Welcome aboard, good find re the G3, well done...really glad you're not scrapping everything! As Azda said, a couple of decent books, and a good rummage around on here should help you spot some of the rarities.

Some ripe Stilton before you go to bed, with a Spink as your bedside read. That should do it! Ahhh, that'll be it, I've been drinking a bottle of port every night!

I don't think either, or any, of the books appear to stand alone very well, though the Withers Galata guide would definitely be my first choice, over Wren, North, Etc. I know very little about the early medieval pennies, so cannot really say who's right or wrong from my own personal experience, hence the post! There is a lot of conflicting evidence, particularly at the 3g/class 4 crossover, I think because they share the same crown, and maybe this is unusual in the identification of the types, I just don't know enough about them! I'm feeling a little bias re North, because it's bloody useless for Elizabeth...I'd have a Spink's any day of the week for that, BCW notwithstanding!

Can anyone enlighten me, I'm finding conflicting evidence when using Withers, Wren, and Spink (I left North out of it, as adding the fourth book just blows it completely). The below coin has a Class 3g crown, which is used on 3g and Class 4. - Withers says Large Commas for 4a (rather than the more usual crescents of 3g). - Withers says Cross Potent for classes 1-5(Long Serifs present on 3-5), however, Wren says Cross Pattee for Class 4 - Withers says egg-waisted S for 4a, but Spinks says 'late S always used', which I think mine is (as illustrated in Withers, though North's late S is actually the egg-waited kind). On balance of evidence I think 4a, mostly on account of the obverse comma-wedges and complete crown, which starts to break down from 4b onwards, and also the Spink claim of late S? A lot of conflicting evidence, generally, of which I have only listed some...what's the consensus? Actually I said I wasn't going to involve North, but 3g for them is early or late S (late meaning egg-waisted for them) with varying stops!

That's worked out fine - obviously a recipe for success. Agreed, and it demonstrates how we all have our own little routines that achieve our end!

It's only been 5 days, I'm trying!