Coinery

I wouldn't worry about it Stuart. I used to deal (and still dabble) in antique silver. I bought one for tarnished flatware and it was pretty useless at removing anything, other than the £10 from my wallet to buy it of course! I've so very nearly bought a couple of books on the subject! I quite often get my head into the Clevedon Salerooms, and I see all this lovely GIII/WIV silver going out, just wishing I knew enough to buy some without throwing my money away.

Oh dear, oh, dear! That can only have developed in the slab if it's CGS! You're going to have to crack it out to arrest it surely? From some of the previous statements made in the other CGS thread, I'm assuming if you return it to CGS you'll get compensation (not!) but, at the very least, you'd think they'd be happy to re-slab for free and cover your postage costs, once you've neutralised the verd? Re the grade, at that end of the scale you really do need some serious close-ups. I did mention in another thread about the buckles on the side of the boot, are they still proud/struck-up? Or have they been pushed back into the seam? Actually, I'm really looking forward to a major close-up on the boot of Dave's proof, must remember to ask him! I'm certain that CGS don't pay compensation for any deterioration in the slab. They only pay market value if you can prove that it's a fake, and even then you have to be the original submitter and also prove it's fake without removing it or tampering with the slab - so you have zero chance of that. Surely, they would refuse to re-slab after removing the 'green' as it has been cleaned. I agree with Nick. Quoting their website: "In fact we guarantee to pay the submitter the full market value of any non genuine English Milled coin that we may encapsulate.". Hence there is no compensation even if it is a non-English fake or an English hammered fake. They would probably only reslab it with a yellow label. I absolutely agree with Nick too! I was referring to an overzealous remark made by Bill (I think), who highlighted a 'bad in the slab' guarantee that CGS were offering (which I didn't think for a minute they were, of course)!

Looking at the boot (?ear) and the obverse generally, I'd really struggle to part with NEF money. It going to be off the scale, isn't it!

The face, leg detail and blanket binding all looks less than perfect to me. Not that I know anything about milled coin grading , but VF ish? Whatever average number that might be. High 50s? Now here's a nice one: You can definitely buckle THAT boot up! Where's that one for sale, see if I can't beat Dave in the CGS League Tables?

Looks like a bit of the encapsulator's ear wax! Can't be St George's because it doesn't look in the photo as if he has one!

The CGS plastic fractures and shards up quite badly, so go careful, as the bits are definitely sharp enough to damage the coin. I tend to start from the top...pliers on one side, and a pair of pincers the other, cracking the edges off bit at a time. Sometimes you can get to a point where you can lever the two sides apart, before getting too close to the coin, but not always. The perfect way would be to 'junior hacksaw' the thick edge off down one long side, and then across the two shorter edges, and then finally 'prize' it open! As Mel Gibson then cried................

Sad thing is, there will be people who buy it! Watch our for the hyper-dipped next weekend! http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/CLEAN-YOUR-BULK-LOTS-OF-BRITISH-COINS-QUICKLY-SAFELY-/160672782393?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_3&hash=item2568d81839

Oh dear, oh, dear! That can only have developed in the slab if it's CGS! You're going to have to crack it out to arrest it surely? From some of the previous statements made in the other CGS thread, I'm assuming if you return it to CGS you'll get compensation (not!) but, at the very least, you'd think they'd be happy to re-slab for free and cover your postage costs, once you've neutralised the verd? Re the grade, at that end of the scale you really do need some serious close-ups. I did mention in another thread about the buckles on the side of the boot, are they still proud/struck-up? Or have they been pushed back into the seam? Actually, I'm really looking forward to a major close-up on the boot of Dave's proof, must remember to ask him!

If my prayers were answered it would be slimmer and cheaper, but I bet they aren't. I've got a well-thumbed 2012 if you want it (no charge)? Would be a fair swap for all I've learned on here! That's a very kind offer! I would at least offer to pay the postage PM me your address, and I'll get it in the post to you! It is battered, though...you might even want to send it back! Let me do a John and say, no charge at all, but if you fancy dropping a couple of posty/postie quid in the Air-Ambulance kitty, that would make everyone a winner!

If my prayers were answered it would be slimmer and cheaper, but I bet they aren't. I've got a well-thumbed 2012 if you want it (no charge)? Would be a fair swap for all I've learned on here!

I thought when I saw your photos, that it looked like a 'bright' variety, but I just don't know whether you can judge by the colour or not. Perhaps Dave G. (or anybody else for that matter) can enlighten us? Would be great if it was a 'bright', as I'm led to believe it's the scarcer variety?

I mean to get as close to AU/UNC a set of the entire series as I possibly can! Usual procedure, get as much of the basic set as is possible from the 'bay, with a bit of reselling/upgrading to establish the collection. Then fine-tune with the dealer and main auction catalogues!

Ah, 1922 is an interesting date. For pennies, it was the second occurrence of the redesigned portrait (which had been done for silver coins in 1920-1). However, the problem with G5 obverse strikes - 1st series - is confined to the larger denominations. It doesn't apply to the 6d, farthing, or 3d, which had no obverse redesign until the Modified Effigy, as they didn't need it. You will see the same portrait design on those from 1911 to 1926, with slight variations in 1911 : all denominations, and 1914 onwards : farthings. Therefore I would suggest your 1922 3d is simply a wearing die for the obverse. But do also bear in mind that getting crisp detail on such small denomination dies was extremely difficult, and you will see a lot less detail on the sixpence lion reverse than you do on the shilling reverse, even though it's the same design! Just for reference: the difficult dates in high grade for GV 3d are : 1925, 1926, 1928, and 1930 (though oddly, I've seen more high grade 1928s than the other dates mentioned). Thanks, P, I don't know how you remember all this stuff! I've started copying and pasting these types of posts to Word! Agree with Peck about the wearing die on the obverse. The reverse also looks a bit weak on the left side of the wreath. Yours looks to be on the brighter side of dull than most and is certainly brighter than mine (attached). Most that I have seen are dull or even duller. As an aside, looking at the statistics contained within the Royal Mint annual reports shows that of all the silver coins (excluding Maundy) the threepence invariably gives the lowest coins per die pair strike average. For example, in 1873 when the Royal Mint were struggling to obtain good quality steel for dies, the figures show that it took 763 obverse and 193 reverse dies to produce just over 4 million threepences (or 8,462 threepences per pair of dies). The images are a fair representation of the surface and brightness! Now, I'd hate to throw more wood on the fire, but is anyone thinking a mis-attribution? Unfortunately, there are no distinguishing die-differences from what I can see? As a point of study, re the weak wreath and bust, CGS graded this one AU75 (I personally think it's a bit of an overgrade) Your's looks fantastic, by the way, leaves mine with plenty of room for an upgrade me thinks, which is always my favourite bit! In answer to your colouring point, Nick, mine is very lustrey/silvery, but matt???

Ah, 1922 is an interesting date. For pennies, it was the second occurrence of the redesigned portrait (which had been done for silver coins in 1920-1). However, the problem with G5 obverse strikes - 1st series - is confined to the larger denominations. It doesn't apply to the 6d, farthing, or 3d, which had no obverse redesign until the Modified Effigy, as they didn't need it. You will see the same portrait design on those from 1911 to 1926, with slight variations in 1911 : all denominations, and 1914 onwards : farthings. Therefore I would suggest your 1922 3d is simply a wearing die for the obverse. But do also bear in mind that getting crisp detail on such small denomination dies was extremely difficult, and you will see a lot less detail on the sixpence lion reverse than you do on the shilling reverse, even though it's the same design! Just for reference: the difficult dates in high grade for GV 3d are : 1925, 1926, 1928, and 1930 (though oddly, I've seen more high grade 1928s than the other dates mentioned). Thanks, P, I don't know how you remember all this stuff! I've started copying and pasting these types of posts to Word!

I forgot to say Paulus, the background is a page of the homilies "appointed to be read in the churches at the time of Queen Elizabeth of famous memory: and now thought fit to be reprinted by authority from the King's most excellent Majesty" - I love that introduction to the homilies, you just couldn't make it up! It's a 1683, Charles II text, I chose it because the colour and pattern gave me the least amount of colour adjustment on the coin images. Pure laziness, as well as a lack of knowledge and ability with the camera! Too much technology and not enough capacity to take it all in!

Which flavour of 1922 threepence is it? Dull or bright? Dull...a weak obverse, but the point of that mustache is just about there. Does '22 slot into that mushy-strike period, or is this a poor example of type? The 20thC thing is way out of my comfort zone, but extremely rewarding. I've got the whole G5 and G6 series in the headlights at the moment, and really enjoying it! Still need to pinch-up on that resizing and lighting!

Agreed, it surely wouldn't come off so easily if it was actual verd. And that's absolutely fair enough, but haven't you ever come across a 20thC bronze with the lightest beginnings of a green 'bloom' that comes away leaving the coin as-new, before it's got more than microscopically into the metal? Or ever acetoned/washed/wiped a coin, whatever your method, and found green residue on the cotton bud/tissue, etc, etc.? I do know for a personal fact that early onset verdigris does quite happily come away from a non-degraded (un-pitted) surface. It's altogether a different animal when the surface of the coin is no longer clearly defined. Namely, when the verdigris and the surface of the coin have started to become one. Anyway, the coin's fine, and I'm pleased!

Oh come on, you're just taking the piss!

No, regular slab issue for this one! I've still got the cotton bud if anyone knows of a simple chemical experiment to determine the composition of the green coloured residue on it? What can you add to a copper component that guarantees a colour change or an explosion or something? Try adding ammonia solution. Any blue colour would indicate would indicate presence of copper ions. Copper ions react with ammonia to give blue copper hydroxide. (Further addtion of ammonia will give a deep blue copper complex but you haven't got enough substance on the cotton bud for this test) Excellent, Sword, will give that a go! What would be the easiest source of ammonia...chemist? I can get a 9.5% solution from boots! Strong enough, do you think?

No, regular slab issue for this one! I've still got the cotton bud if anyone knows of a simple chemical experiment to determine the composition of the green coloured residue on it? What can you add to a copper component that guarantees a colour change or an explosion or something?

'Wallet!' Only just got it, pies!

Apparently, the dreaded green can be copper carbonate, chloride or acetate. These three compounds are soluble in acetic acid, ethanol and alcohol (or water) respectively. However, knowing bugger all about chemistry - I can't vouch for the correctness of this info. I have never tried to remove verd spots as I don't collect copper. Hence I have no practical experience in this but am now tempted to try out some experiments!Copper carbonate is a base and so will dissolve (react) with acid. Thinking more about it, you are right Coinery. Copper chloride is solube in acetone and I assume can be removed that way. (I shouldn't trust an article too readily without a bit more thought). Copper carbonate is insolube in water and I think is also insolube in acetone. However, if the verd has not eaten in, then acetone will at least act as a lubricant and should help to an extent. Acetone is an organic solvent and should be very good with plastic residues. I still think that the main responsibilities of a TPG are to accurately grade the coin and to make certain that the slabbing process is not going to cause extra harm to a coin. It is a tad unrealistic to expect them to analyse the suface of the coin to see if there are any harmful substances on it. If it looks like a problem is developing, one should be prepared to crack the slab open to sort it out. If people are worried about the edge of the coin, then the NGC slab design shows the edge. I don't think slabbing is prefect by any means but I am of the opinion that a slabed coin has less chance of picking up damage (physcially or chemically). Slabed coins developing problems always raise eyebrows but a much much greater number are sitting safely (as far as one can tell ) in the slab. Yes, I think the acetone is only acting as a cleaning agent, rather than chemically 'reacting' with the verd. I've only ever been able to remove the light beginnings of verd with acetone, rather than deep seated spots, and I genuinely think that was the case with the '22 3d. If it really was a plastic reaction from a flip, I would've expected the edge to have been the least affected? But by the by! Anyway, as you say, it's unreasonable to expect TPG's to analyse the surface and atmospheric contaminants slabbed away with the coin. It's just always been something that has niggled me, and one of the first questions I ever asked of the slabbing process; wondering whether you can just lock a slab away, safe in the knowledge it's entombed and protected from environmental factors. In reality this is not the case and, knowing that CGS fiercely reject even the faintest traces of 'corrosion' (I know this from personal experience with them), it only leads me to believe FINALLY that coins can begin to deteriorate in slabs, as of course they can out of them! Whether we will see more and more issues as slabs start to age, who knows but, in light of recent evidence (my verd 1951 penny taken from a US slab, and the uncomfortably verd-like edge on the 3d), I think there could be more to come. Anyone know how old the first ever encapsulated TPGC coin would be now (and I don't mean the age of the coin inside )?

One of the few shows you could put on half-way through and still really enjoy it!

I'm just watching the follow-up Richard III documentary 'the unseen story,' and I am so glad to find that THAT woman has been effectively gagged by some excellent editing. The first programme was more 'reality TV' in style than a serious documentary, on account of her dramatic self-indulgences!