Coinery

I think we HAVE a metallurgist in the house! Interesting!

Thanks Bob, I was totally unaware of that obverse variation - will try and get a better image of the A in my specimen played with my new toy - a cheap USB microscope, on my 1860JA details of the N over Z, the recut O of ONE (hard to spot on my coin), recut R of REG, and yes I agree an odd A in VICTORIA David Nice toy, David, Father Christmas HAS been early! I really like this N/Z overstrike, it's definitely one of the prettier errors out there, adding that elegant downturn to the left foot. A nice bit 'O' calligraphy!

not just pennies, I'm sure. Here's my 1902 halfpenny and it matches your description perfectly, Stuart! Yes, unfortunately I don't have the images, or coins, of the two I'm talking about (peck), but they looked almost toy-money in appearance, like you'd imagine a matt brass proof to look like! Any ideas, then, what it's all about?

My brief too for hammered! AND Father Christmas drinks Talisker, you ask him!

It sounds like you've got a valuable relationship with CGS, you can never have too many contacts in this hobby! Good for you, divemaster, I'd be happy to have that in-ness with CSG, even though I don't actively collect slabs.

What do you do here, is there a link, or could you explain? What happens when salt is involved?

No worries, Bob I'd be very interested to see what they say about the Edinburgh collection if you find the time to post it on here. Here's how Michael Gouby describes the N over N Michael, a Z sideways is an N! I think we all know what we mean though!

Yes indeed - Freeman mentions in his introduction that Kings Norton supplied blanks to the Royal Mint for the whole period from 1912 to 1919. I had often noticed that characteristic 'redness' on pennies of that period. Now I wonder if Freeman was too conservative - you see 'red' pennies quite commonly also between 1908 and 1910, and I wonder if KN supplied blanks for those too? Do you know anything about brassy looking pennies of E7? I've come across 2 now, both full-lustre, but as yellow as a horse brass! Not polished, either, full-lustre!

They describe it as "N over Z (N over sideways N)" Bob, the history of the Edinburgh collection was described in Colin Cooke's monthly magazine for October, which irritatingly, I seem to have lost. Unlike the other collections, there is no preface to the collection on their website. It appears that it was sold as a job lot to Colin Cooke, who then listed them all separately for sale. Can't remember too much about the history given, except for the fact that the guy who collected them, aimed for the very highest quality. All are BU or nearly so. He didn't have all of the very rarest dates (no 1869 for example). But the ones that were there are absolutely superlative. In terms of bun pennies, they are a class collection ~ although it isn't just bun pennies, of course. Far from it. They can all be seen here Makes you want to give up, looking at that lot!

Nice example. I was going to point out that it was surely a sideways N not a Z, but Coinery beat me to it. However, if you were to write a sideways N it would certainly look like a Z, and a lot less to write! So N over Z is good enough I guess I'm sure Dave's knocked a couple of sideways N's out on his aye-phone before? I know I have, but I'm buggered if I can find them! Maybe it WAS a Z?

Die cracks are very common in the bun series, especially the early ones. A pretty good tool for spotting rarities from poor eBay photos though, I'd think? Get the year and one or two die cracks in the right place, and you could be home and dry? Could be a new eBay help guide (c'mon Scott, it was your thinking!), take a year, and any known die cracks associated with the rare varieties or pairings, and draw the map! You might be able to pick out a die flaw ahead of the microscopic differences we sometimes see in these coins...especially given the appalling images we mostly see on eBay!

Isn't there just the smallest bit of pleasure in reading about and researching a coin you're especially desiring? As an example I've already offered, if you were to think of buying a 'problem' shilling of G3 to add to your proud collection of early 19C silver, wouldn't a huge part of the pleasure in achieving that be your new learnings on the counterfeit's of G3? It's all out there! If I really wanted a gothic crown, the research into what's not a gothic crown, would be as much of the pleasure as knowing what is! Not to mention Peter's got a kitten ripe and ready to spray his Christmas tree next week!

Sideways N though, isn't it? Sorry if I'm stating the obvious, but I haven't got the books to hand! Really clear though, unlike so many of the 19C varieties!

A Sherlock approach to spotting rarities, I like it!

That would be a very disappointing AU if it landed on your doorstep! Unbelievable!

I'm nothing like that at all!

Are these new purchases, Patrick? A great spread, should involve just about everyone!

I can't remember if it was Rob or Clive that was a Talisker lad. You'll have to get a bottle in Peter, I'm afraid!

Can't wait...the fruit bowls are full of small citrus fruits,the nuts are in supply and a huge capon has been ordered. My Xmas list includes a bottle of Glenmoray and a few good Cubans.Father Xmas still gets a couple of sausage rolls and a large Malt on Xmas Eve and my girls are 15 & 17.Mother stays over and does the veg.I cook the chicken/capon...we don't bother with pud (the starter is sherry and smoked fish)a great day.My eldest has just turned up with a new kitten who I'm sure will climb on or pee on the tree. Here comes my 19th nervous breakdown. Nut roast is currently being coordinated! AND Father Christmas drinks Talisker! For goodness sake, Peter, didn't you know that?

Yes, with Peter on this one, and no doubt everyone else! It's my own thought that just about every detail, including the ethics, of slabbing are now fully understood, by all of those who are in favour, and by all of those who are against (not forgetting those inbetween, of course). All that's left at the end of the day is personal preference and, anything beyond that, is just about frustration at not being understood. I'm personally in favour of coin-talk and, I'm so very happy to say, is what happens on this the finest forum out there...excepting my one-to-one conversation on FAKE Mary Groat that is ! Merry Christmas, chaps...it's door number 1 on the advent calendar this Saturday!

poor resizing again, sorry!

I'm feeling fairly certain that this is another contemporary hammered counterfeit, but would love comments. If it weren't for the positive silver test I'd be certain...did the pre-recoinage bods ever silver plate? Anyone know, or have examples? Of course, the recent Mary groat wasn't plated, so would you plate a threehalfpence? This is a BCW Threehalfpence CN1:c weighing very light at 0.54g. It's hammered-style thin (very thin) and doesn't really draw any attention to itself except at magnification where, to me, it looks 'wrong' and plated, possibly? It tests positive for silver, suggesting that either it IS silver throughout, or that it's plated as suggested??? The silver-test I use does turn the tiniest silver filing into an instant blood-red, so it's very sensitive to high-grade material (plating included). My nagging doubt here is that it's such a small denomination coin. Why would you trouble yourself with a threehalfpence, when there were bigger fish to fry? Maybe the dim light of Tudor England made the smaller denominations a better bet, who knows? So, if 'I' had a coin like this in my collection, I wouldn't be happy with it as 'genuine,' any thoughts? I'm really going to say, in the absence of a greater study of this type and date, that the jury's OUT with me, though I'm on the side of 80% guilty as charged!

Thanks for that, peterkin! I'm so pleased to have traversed the greatest obstacle re the whole project, namely, contact with the men themselves! A direct line to BCW is a huge privilege!

Hi all, I'd like to run the following text past you all, and ask for any insights, better processes, etc. etc! It's most certainly a work without end, more a labour of love, really, enriching my interest in the coins I already hold, or coins I see and admire and wish I could hold! I never thought I'd attempt anything like this, it's developed out of the search to verify my own possible 1578/7/6 sixpence. If I may, I'd like to use this thread throughout the process for all those questions of mine that will inevitably arise, and hope that some of you might help me out with some of the answers! Anyway, I think the following text and images are are reasonably self-explanatory, and an introduction to the basic website idea... Forward Firstly, if I might clearly state, this is not a research work, as it is neither rigorous, nor focused upon the discovery of anything new. Neither is it intended to be a new catalogue of micro-varieties, as all the vagarities of hammered coinage would make for an unenviable, if not impossible task. It is however quite simply a series of die observations designed to assist fellow collectors, who are interested in classifying their coins according to Brown, Comber & Wilkinson’s monumental work ‘The Hammered Silver Coins Produced at the Tower Mint During the Reign of Elizabeth I’ (Brown et al. 2009). A significant number of superb-quality coins currently escape the net of full BCW provenance, on account of ‘inconvenient’ weaknesses in the region of a key-identifier. Resolution can then only be found in die-matching, and this is the focus of this work and the following images. This is of course a work without end, which lends itself well to the regular updates of a web-based platform, notwithstanding the fact that a book full of thousands of high-resolution images would be unviable. For those who trouble to make use of the following pages, it is expected, for a considerable number of years to come, that dies will commonly be unrepresented, and better examples will become available. Should this be the case, I would very much appreciate copies of your images for inclusion into the catalogue. Method Rather than clarify every oddity of a particular die, it was thought better to gather a core sample of ten or more (where possible) different examples of type, and then identify the more determining irregularities. These were either unique to the die, at least within the preliminary sample, or were at least a less common feature. Any identifiers with potential for confusion, or those that were closely replicated on other dies, have been avoided where possible, but highlighted in red for secondary reference. Similarly, where dies share a number of ‘similar’ irregularities, with few decisive differences, footnotes are added for further clarification. It is hoped at some point that statistical analysis can be applied to the process, and a more scientific approach used overall. However, in the meantime, be patient with me and enjoy the process. Brown, I.D., Comber, C.H., Wilkinson, W. (2009) The Hammered Silver Coins Produced at the Tower Mint During the Reign of Elizabeth I. [2009 update] Llanfyllin: Galata Print Ltd. xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx BCW ‘A’ Shilling Reverse (30th November 1583 – 13th February 1585) BCW’s ‘A’ shilling reverse types, numbering just two, are easily distinguished by the presence, or not, of an over-mark. Though much less common, XX dies are thought to exist with an ‘A’ over ‘Bell’. It is assumed from the outset that, unless the interest is in micro-varieties, attempts are being made here to classify a shilling with inconclusive privy mark detail. Accordingly, the following descriptors noted on the reverse ‘A’ dies, do not involve the privy mark itself. Reverse Dies of BCW's A-b Shilling

RARE???? Alarm bells! Filled dates and disguised in the easiest way possible!