Coinery

It's great ain't it! You've gotta luv the 'bay!

Oh, please, how do you do that? 'Timeline Originals' out you go!

Well, I haven't seen any with double striking. But then, there are few enough examples around so there may be some, or it may be less than perfect ones were disposed of. Even those that 'escaped' and have signs of having circulated are generally well struck despite the wear. I can see Peck's point, the coins could for example have been specially made using a screw press rather than being hammered. But it would be difficult to be certain, without documentary evidence to back up the idea. As to the 'best examples' of regular coins, I don't think so. They look like they were struck from special dies, for example the coin here. Currency issue coins do occur with the bell mint mark, however I've never seen one with the reverse garniture breaking the legend like this. Other fine work pieces such as the C3/5 shilling have yet to be found as a currency piece. And lastly, all bar one fine work shilling are struck with the first mint mark for a new design, suggesting they are trials, or similar. If the best early coins were picked out I'd expect to see later mint marks too. Pretty compelling evidence I'd say.

Could be interesting but, as always, close-ups with better images are needed, especially with a coin that's low-grade. Could be a 'T' ?TERITVS or any of a number of possibilities. There appears to be a second leg (?shadow) where the 'T' (as in fourth letter) should be, suggesting other potential rotational variables. You're going to have to start experimenting with the macro settings on your compact.

Could I ask opinions on this coin re its class/pedigree and grade? 310428456958 (again a proper link would be appreciated)!

Ok, what do you think of this theory.. We know that milled technology goes back to Elizabeth I but was initially rejected - violently - by Mint workers who thought it would put them out of a job. Also, it was apparently noticeably slower at producing coins in the early days. What if "finework" coins where quality counted for more than speed as only a very few specimens would be produced, were milled rather than hammered? This seems even more likely with Briot's issues, as his milling presses were introduced to the Mint in this reign. What I'm saying is, that BM example looks too high quality to be hammered, and it looks in all respects identical to the milled issue. Although regarded as a hammered coin because the currency strikes were indeed still hammered, the finework specimens could have been milled, yes? Don't know at the moment, but if so you would expect the flan to be of even thickness throughout. Gut feeling is still no because the flans are still not perfectly round and were produced at times other than when Briot was making his milled coinage (e.g. James I). There is also a degree of excess metal which is not normally seen on either Briot or Mestrelle coinage. I think it quite likely that the flans were cut out using a circular punch as was the case certainly in the case of Saxon pennies. Or were they possibly struck on oversize flans and then trimmed afterwards? Are there ever any subtle signs of double-strike on the fine-work coins, as this would surely add weight to one theory or the other? Also, what if they weren't fine-work coins at all? What if the first few hundred coins struck on new dies were just pawed over by mint officials looking for the very best examples to send to the king or whoever? One would think the top official's reputation would be governed by such examples of quality workmanship, even if they were not truly representative of the coins hitting the market place. All speculative on my part, of course!

To right! Your right, there!

Can't help wondering if this is part of that strange phenomemon associated with the internet where people seem to get overly aggressive and abusive at a distance, yet are mild mannered face to face. Forums are littered with such examples. On the PCGS forum the world coins section is always praised for being a haven of civility, whereas the US section is usually mentioned for being its antithesis. I don't mean to bring cars back to the table, but I think the above phenomenon is well documented in many activities of life! When I was a young cockerel I once indicated to pull in to the left about 20 yards or so before a turning, which caught the driver out behind, who 'assumed' I'd be travelling on a little further and turning OFF the road. The driver of the other car, who wasn't paying enough attention, slammed on his brakes and then must have punched his horn through the back of his steering wheel, where he held it there for a good 5 seconds. In my rear-view mirror I noticed his arms flailing around and his mouth wide open, exhalting things I care not to think about. My blood was up now, and I leapt out the car...to find the driver was the local vicar; a kinder, more gentle man, you could not hope to find! THE END!

Not a terrible reverse! The milled edge looks like it could be shocking though?

I was lucky. The listing mentioned it was from "an important collection of English coins" so I did an auction search but didn't see anything recent. The Bole collection of sixpences was next (the DNW listing is still online) and when that turned up nothing, on a whim I looked in Brooker (Coins of Charles I, The John Brooker Collection, volume 33 of the Syllogue of Coins of the British Isles, by J.J. North & P.J. Preston-Morley, London 1984) and there it was with the provenance above. Where it's been since the Brooker coins were sold I don't know. Maybe Rob might be able to track it? As to the dealer, I've seen his ebay listings before, but don't know anything about him I'm afraid. Andy Holds has a sensible grip on munismatics and is ok. I was chatting to him yesterday at the Midland. I've known him since St.James's 3 (2005) when he bought a pattern halfpenny because I was asleep and I had to buy it post-sale from him. Thanks again! I wish I'd sniped with more, though lord knows what the other guy was prepared to go to? I guess with the recent heritage accompanying the coin I should have done better! I've got a real problem developing, in that I find far too many coins attractive. Can be absolutely anything, G5, Celtic, Roman...I think gold, copper, silver and tin, can all look staggeringly beautiful when right! I guess it's possible to have a generic collection, with quality the criterion instead of cohesion? It just presently spreads the knowledge base a tad too far, unfortunately. A collection of 100 or so coins, each with wow factor, and related to each other only by country of origin might be the only solution! Tsk, wish I never got involved sometimes!

Thanks anyway, Rob! As Richard said, a good buy for someone!

Thanks, Richard, where did you get the provenance from? Does this dealer have a website? I came second, such a pretty coin!

Apologies, but I can't for the life of me find the original thread with Declan's 1899 pennies in it, so here's a new one! I wanted to re-read the original to make sense of what I was trying to achieve by overlapping the two images with transparency? The below image is the two pictures overlapped with transparency, not that clear unfortunately as one of the images is, as Declan himself declared, pants. However, I think it shows the last nine to be a different size. It is probably much simpler, and much easier to see this in the bottom image (if this was the only point of the exercise???). I'm wondering whether in the narrow date coin, with what appears to be a full-sized last 9, the bottom tooth had been damaged by the 9 (others will know, of course) and that subsiquently they shaved a little off the bottom of the 9 for future dies? Just a thought, as the other components of it look identical, excepting the length of the tail? I wish I could remember what I was trying to achieve!

Link is below, unfortunately I am a complete ignoramus with hammered! http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/310428456958;jsessionid=6B5C0D362A065BDC8F6587867AF32071?ru=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.ebay.co.uk%2Fsch%2Fi.html%3F_sacat%3D0%26_nkw%3D310428456958%26_rdc%3D1 Thanks, Paulus, very much appreciated! I think it magnificent, had the magic factor for me, would love to know more about its finer points!

Thanks Accumulator, that's cleared that up! I think the last 9 on Declan's close-date is larger than the other last digit 9's shown, I'll go back to the images and chop and overlay...see what comes out.

Low feedback too! Perhaps they don't know what they've got!

I don't think it was to make the wide date possible. I'm wondering whether they quickly made the 9 smaller because it was too much of a jam to get the full-size 9 in, due to the curvature. I wonder if maybe a bead or two got damaged on a couple of dies, leading to the decision to shorten the 9, making the wide-dates a possibility? I don't think the wide-dates would've been possible with the full-size 9. I overlapped the first and second 9 of your close-date and they were identical, so full-size 9's were definitely used. All speculation from me, I'm no expert in these things, just always find them interesting!

Though I have to say that I LOVE that Geo III engraving of Britannia! Well they've only just been listed (assuming Peter hasn't spent all his claret money!) on Antony Wilson's site if anyone is interested. http://www.yorkcoins.com/septi2012newads.htm blue nun,thunder bird with a splash of bulls blood for the rest of the month.No honestly I haven't been tempted.Thanks for the heads up.Last time you did this (John Newman) I was I ended up buying that perfect little martlet penny from John Newman, very pleased!

?john...not argentum & coins!

As always for me, it's the rubbish inconclusive images on TPGC's websites! "There to combat the fraudsters!" Well do a better job then please!

Most of my ladies have been happy with a bit of Suffolk purple vein. That's a kind of cheese, right? Actually a fruit. Well it is a peach (Best enjoyed with a piece of cheese, though :D ) You make it too complicated...it's just CHEESE! Very nice with Port and a Starbird! In an attempt to steer this thread ever more away from coins and increasingly surreal (but of course remaining faithful to the 'Something for the ladies' topic), I would like to put forward Venezuelan Beaver Cheese as a tenuous and delicious food item I'm rather partial to a bit of Sussex Slipcote, or occasionally a Stinking Bishop...no accounting for taste, I guess!

Most of my ladies have been happy with a bit of Suffolk purple vein. That's a kind of cheese, right? Actually a fruit. Well it is a peach (Best enjoyed with a piece of cheese, though :D ) You make it too complicated...it's just CHEESE! Very nice with Port and a Starbird!

True that they look different from our current coins. That's largely the difference between hand made and machine made coins. Wobbly edges. Parts of the design unclear due to wear or poor manufacture. But I think one of the nice things about coins is the link to the past. Here for example is a vary similar shield design. The first is a shilling of James I from 1624, the second is a pound coin from 2010. Apart from the lis of France being dropped from the design in the 1800s they are pretty similar I reckon. Sincfantastic Richard.It is like comparing a British Leyland to a modern car. All we do with our cars are service them.I have been lucky from 1984 to have company cars (until 2006).Since then I have stuck to Vauxhall...although Mrs Peter drives her Hyundai Siii.I'm now after an Omega Estate with a doggie guard and a Cayman...I would also like a Honda fireblade and 20 pairs of M&S pants. Ahh, Fireblades! They were the reported DB's when I was scratching the footrests off my GPZ750 - and you needed quite a few pairs of M&S pants for that task too, I can tell you, what with the yucky long chassis of the GPZ series of that generation (white-line wobble of the greatest fury)! I never dreamt I'd ever desire a faster bike when I first started squealing my old Kwacker around...how naive of me fortunately I never got one!

With you on this one! Even as is it's aesthetically appealling; what a sharp arm strike and incredibly pretty, compositionally speaking! An EF would be something to behold! I'm still trying to crank someone down from £1800 to a more realistic price for a keeper Elizabeth I, proving to be a tough nut, would love that penny though if price were no issue! Glad to see another Pewter Elizabeth 3D bite the dust! It doesn't take too many 'winges' from the community to make it count!

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