Coinery

Or as Roy Osborne says "Busts 65 [E2] and 67 [E3]. Small neat portraits on the shillings only. The rare 65 portcullis is the only one with an inner circle [D6]. Superficially alike, these two dies are made by different methods; 65 by small punches, 67 by one punch, it is here that the join in the hair ceases. On 65 the band of the crown has 6 jewels with 2 pearls between each, the hair breaks at the neck and has a parallel curve at its tip, the collar front has a straight line at the throat with dots above, the first rear lobe of the collar is obscured by the hair and there is a fine edging to the pauldron. On 67 the band of the crown has 9 jewels with no pearls, there is no break in the hair, but there is a twist and outward turn at its tip, the collar front has a curved line at the throat with no dots, the first rear lobe is clear of the hair and there is large lobed edging to the pauldren." ... so when are you going to start this book Stuart? Two pages could one quality photo qualify! I think that's what's missing from all the major numismatic works! With the digital age, there is the opportunity for every punch and die to be viewable in high-definition, at all times! I can fully understand why MS took the C1 shillings no further than he did, there would not have been the quality plates to support any deeper findings in print; he would have been reduced to extremely lengthy text which, in all fairness, would never have been correctly interpreted...lord knows how difficult it can sometimes be even with images! Hah, a book! :P

Ahhh, yes, but the rubbish coins of yester-year are now the treasured coins of today! I wouldn't necessarily say white-glove everything, I don't personally have any, but the philosophy is sound I think. As a good and decent hippy of this land, I'd say it's no bad thing to live respectfully in all fields of life!

With what fakers can and do produce these days it's time we start to talk about it more. we need to get to know what they are and have faked. We could with regular members swap any fake coins we have so pepole get to know the look/feel and then pass it on with permission of the owner. There could be a data base so the coin swap will keep track of coins being swapped around so it can be returned to the owner if requested. My point exactly! There is an extremely good 1905 shilling that has been available under the exact same philosophy and terms that you have just described, only the original thread is now long buried, unless found by chance!

That far on, amazing! We definitely need the Freeman's tower shillings of C1, maybe even the Groom's version (if that didn't create too many gaps in Richard's collection)? [emoticon with tongue sticking out!]

Lodge and beat booked for week of 1st October. 7 days and nights without screaming kids (sadly probably without screaming reels as well but worth it for the peace!). Glenlivet is already stockpiled and order for Cuban cigars about to be placed Glenlivet? Ahh, for that smoky aroma of Talisker, my all time favourite autumnal drink! Ouzo for Greece!

Didn't have the foggiest idea that a number of punches made up the busts, now you've got me...just as soon as time and money permits! I was having a conversation only today about how amazing/surprising it is that such a clear, historically important, and available artefact, is so incomplete in its study. It seems hard to believe that we study the embers of a Tudor/Stuart fire-place with microscopes, but have yet to classify the finer details of the most socially conforming object of all time!

Osborne's article is in the 1984 BNJ p.164-209, just before Besly's York mint article. A very useful volume. The mentioned Sharp 1977 and Osborne 1984 papers are the best in depth for study with the Sharp having numerous updated BNJ additions along the way. It is hoped that these papers might be revised at some stage, but alas it might take someone with the a great will to do so now. I know of 34 Tower mint Charles portraits, with one of these (Sharp G3) being recognised since. The D type for example has six 'official' portraits but again one or two of these also have (now accepted) know subtle differences, so not conclusive. The Tower Half crown in my opinion is still a sleeping giant, purely for some types are more scarce/rare than generally accepted. Thanks Coin Watch...I'm staggered and very much interested in what you are doing! I hope this thread will develop into an interesting one, with maybe the potential to push the boundaries of C1xii as they are currently understood? The field is still wide open from what I can see, and this is from fresh eyes attributing their first C1 shilling just this week!

Chris, an appeal to you...can we have a separate 'link,' or whatever the correct terminology is for it, akin to the 'new varieties' section, where known fakes can be posted under sub-divisions, Elizabeth I, George III, etc., with perhaps a page clarifying how the location should be used? Namely, 'nothing but counterfeit talk here please,' and under the right sub-heading, please, on pain of death! It seems a bit of a waste that all the valuable past contributions have just disappeared into the ether, dependant upon someone guessing that the thread began with a title like 'my favourite christmas present from marilyn,' or whatever?? Could become a major resource, could bring even more traffic to the forum! I obviously have no comprehension of the logistics involved in this, but it would surely be worthwhile in the name of numismatics?

I'm pretty sure you can also go to the google search page and find a button somewhere that either says something like 'make my homepage' or 'set as default' etc. I'm not on the PC so can't check exactly!

Osborne's article is in the 1984 BNJ p.164-209, just before Besly's York mint article. A very useful volume. Thanks, Rob!

So, first and foremost, we have Michael Sharp and his well publicised work on the series. You also (tomgoodheart) mentioned Osborne in a different thread, where does he fit in? Also, are there any other key die/punch studies out there? I'm presuming that, unlike Elizabeth, even for each obverse type (say D2 for example) there are a number of different bust punches? If so, have they been identified anywhere, are there any records of numbers, is there a calculated guess if not? Also, carrying on from a previous thread, yes, I was reffering to the identification of the Harp [Privy Mark] (though I'm now interested in the Osborne link too). I know there's not a lot to go on, but I add them below.

It's a crossover mule - two obverses, two reverses, so 4 possible combinations. Pointings are the quickest and easiest indicators: Obv 3, Rev C, F.471, C10, I of DEI nearly at a bead, L of HALF between beads Obv 3, Rev D, F.473, R5, I of DEI nearly at a bead, L of HALF at a bead Obv 4, Rev C, F.474, R12, I of DEI between beads, L of HALF between beads Obv 4, Rev D, F.475, R3, I of DEI between beads, L of HALF at a bead Now I'm confused, perhaps I should read the entire thread, but are these not 4 different obverses then? I've only just woke up so could be having a senile moment!

Dragging his response onto the forums is as nasty as you can get...PERFECT! He obviously has a lot of time on his hands! I'm surprised he hasn't written his own papers and published with the BNJ by now!

He's reet popular for errors is our Willem! 160836484181 Anyone please feel free to add the link if you're on a PC

I do like the coin, that's why I bought it. It's just the perennial problem of having two coins of slightly differing grades, but preferring the look of the lower graded coin. I flipped a couple of 1902 pennies back and forth for about a fortnight, having exactly the same dilemma! Also, if the leaf didn't reach the bottom of the die, I guess it would be convex...all speculation of course! "Heads I'll buy you GEF, tails I'll buy you AUNC" [a fortnight later..] "Heads I'll buy you GF, tails I'll buy you AVF" and not so far from the truth! I owned them both and couldn't for the life of me decide which one to keep and which one to sell. Fortunately it's not an issue that often!

Sorry Rob I can't help with this one, the issue was resolved, or resolved itself, following a few others identifying similar issues!

Don't understand this. The last time someone initiated a PM for me was at the end of May/beginning of June. Don't know what's happened since, but if anyone knows how to reinstate the ability to PM me, please feel free to speak out. Yep, I tried to PM you the other night...wouldn't let me, emailed you instead, as you know!

I do like the coin, that's why I bought it. It's just the perennial problem of having two coins of slightly differing grades, but preferring the look of the lower graded coin. I flipped a couple of 1902 pennies back and forth for about a fortnight, having exactly the same dilemma! Also, if the leaf didn't reach the bottom of the die, I guess it would be convex...all speculation of course!

So do you think it's possible that the highest points of the design just ran out of metal, so to speak, with the added relief Victoria now sucking extra silver? So weak strike, possibly? Just exploring a theory, given that weaknesses are a common side-effect of designs that are too volumous, G5 being a classic example?

Makes you feel pretty helpless! This is yet another occasion where knowing the actual buyer's user name would be so useful! Imagine emailing the buyer a quick link to this thread, hopefully getting it there before they paid?

I've never come across anything quite like that on eBay, before! With 70 feedback, could he actually draw the funds from PayPal and be gone? Does anyone know if PayPal still coughs-up if the money's gone from the sellers account? Any experiences out there?

Coins are real enough, but they belong to Bolton Museum. So what's going on?

And this one by the same seller 140791255406 A single BAD image of a commonwealth crown!

Nick, where you can see the underside of Victoria's chin, just left of the S in six, is the bust incuse or in relief, it's one of those optical illusions for me? Also, speaking personally, I'd alway prefer a GEF fully-struck over a aUNC with weaknesses!

Looks about as genuine as Katie Prices lady bumps! Some men like silicon John.....................Around the bath and window frames I wouldn't touch it with a barge pole (the only thing that fills Katie Price properly ) Bloody 'ell, Peter, glad I've finished my lunch!