Coinery

The underlying stress-lines created, by what are immense forces, run deep into the metal of a coin! I know within the last year someone had the images of another coin (I think that may have been a penny too) up on the forum which had suffered the same fate...the underlying stress-lines of the border teeth were the subject of some interesting discussions, as I recall. Would be worth digging it out for a read!

I never noticed that! Perhaps that was the point of the bath, some hope of retrieving the underlying 3, such a waste

Looks like a regular penny that's had a long good soak in acid to me!

Ha, ha! He/she wouldn't be able to convince me in a million years that that coin was bent according to his write-up! Nice grade though, if it was cheaper I'd start wondering about chancing two bits of wood and a vice ;-) ! I'm not sure you'd impress too many women today by bending a micro-thin penny!

I'm starting to rather like these myself!

Lodge and beat booked for week of 1st October. 7 days and nights without screaming kids (sadly probably without screaming reels as well but worth it for the peace!). Glenlivet is already stockpiled and order for Cuban cigars about to be placed Glenlivet? Ahh, for that smoky aroma of Talisker, my all time favourite autumnal drink! Ouzo for Greece! My cousins favourite, his description "it's like licking an ashtray" Thanks for that, John! Hopefully I'll be able to put that thought out of my head before I next squeeze the cork out! Now now Stuart, what a man does in the confines of his own home should remain private!

Lodge and beat booked for week of 1st October. 7 days and nights without screaming kids (sadly probably without screaming reels as well but worth it for the peace!). Glenlivet is already stockpiled and order for Cuban cigars about to be placed Glenlivet? Ahh, for that smoky aroma of Talisker, my all time favourite autumnal drink! Ouzo for Greece! My cousins favourite, his description "it's like licking an ashtray" Thanks for that, John! Hopefully I'll be able to put that thought out of my head before I next squeeze the cork out!

I think you all have made some long and interesting points, and I thank you very much for all your time spent. I take every point onboard and confess that I am very quickly infected by the depth it's possible to go to with any type of coin, I do so hope to have the time and resources to one day grab a numismatic dark alley by the horns and shed some light on it! It's got me all o itchin' like a flea-ridden badger!

Lodge and beat booked for week of 1st October. 7 days and nights without screaming kids (sadly probably without screaming reels as well but worth it for the peace!). Glenlivet is already stockpiled and order for Cuban cigars about to be placed Glenlivet? Ahh, for that smoky aroma of Talisker, my all time favourite autumnal drink! Ouzo for Greece! Ouzo? Now you're talking! Just ice!

Christ, should perhaps change his name to Oriental Coin, if he's going to start collecting these types!

Was that a positive feedback then?

Well, it's possible. The problem is agreeing where to stop. If you look at modern coins then differences between one (micro-)variety and another can be down to whether a tooth in the border aligns with a feature or not, or the spacing between the bust and border down to parts of a millimetre. With hammered coins striking quirks, die wear or damage can make two coins struck from the same die look subtly different. Do we count those as varieties, agree that we'll stop at a particular die pairing (Morrieson tried this), or just aim for a general description such as Osborne's (or Sharp or Spink or North ....) I guess it comes down to what sort of collector you are and whether several broadly similar, but subtly different coins is your aim or you are happy to stop at collecting by type or ... Personally, while a portrait/reverse combination I don't have would be a draw, I'm not worried about finding examples of each different privy mark, legend variation etc. I'm just being curious when I ask this question, quite simply because it would appeal to me, and I'm wondering how you might feel about the scenario? I know it would be impractical to collect every single micro-variety, but when you do buy a very nice coin, perhaps from a bad image, is it not your first response and greatest pleasure to get your books out and nail it down as tightly as possible with references? I just wondered whether it would extend the interest and pleasure to follow it through to dies (if it were possible), even though you may well know that the die number catalogued alongside your coin you may never have? Your's however would still have its final resting place, so to speak! I know pinning down dies would be difficult, but I think there could be enough variation to claim 'C below A,' 'E of Rex rotated clockwise and fully joined at the top cross-bar to X' etc? I'm not saying I'm angling to pursue this, just curious to know whether, if such a resource existed, you'd take your shilling collection to the next level, and enjoy doing so?

Thanks for the information, superb stuff, really appreciated! When you say re-engraved dies, are we talking re-worked, as in repaired/updated with puncheons, or did they literally hand-work current dies for betterment? Also, forgive my ignorance, but when it is said there are x numbers known of any coin, where does that information come from, where would I locate such records myself? Thanks again, Stuart

Do you think that might be one of those vintage fairground things, where you can stick your money in a new-fangle-dangle hand-press, with all the wheels and gears on display, and do something exotic to your coin, much like some of the Victorian contraptions at Wookey Hole?

I'm not sure you do. I think there are over 1000 individual dies identified to date, and that's just for shillings. T in C was a huge issue. In fact, everything from Crown onwards with the exception of sceptre was quite prolific. 382 pages. Volume one of .. two? detailing the Tower mint coins. Then there are two more volumes on provincial issues ... and I have a sneaking suspicion that shillings could be just as complex, if not more. So not a work for the faint hearted to attempt. Or even read! Do you think we should stick with the blue cover, Richard, it's quite regal, don't you think?

I just wonder about how it would work to set up an online resource (for any coinage), founded upon the current major numismatic works; basing it on a kind of 'is it a plant,' yes? 'Go to section 4,' etc. type formula? The gaps could then be filled by others, whose coin data could be entered into the database subject to appropriate coins and quality images. Just a future thought!

It's a crossover mule - two obverses, two reverses, so 4 possible combinations. Pointings are the quickest and easiest indicators: Obv 3, Rev C, F.471, C10, I of DEI nearly at a bead, L of HALF between beads Obv 3, Rev D, F.473, R5, I of DEI nearly at a bead, L of HALF at a bead Obv 4, Rev C, F.474, R12, I of DEI between beads, L of HALF between beads Obv 4, Rev D, F.475, R3, I of DEI between beads, L of HALF at a bead Or the "quick and dirty" way to tell - the common issue has the normal narrow obverse rim, and short reverse teeth. The scarce/rare varieties have any combination of wide obverse rim (like the "1968" hqlfpenny) and/or long reverse teeth. Quick 'n' dirty, happy days!

Oh, and John, do share the link with our esteemed friend!

Or as Roy Osborne says "Busts 65 [E2] and 67 [E3]. Small neat portraits on the shillings only. The rare 65 portcullis is the only one with an inner circle [D6]. Superficially alike, these two dies are made by different methods; 65 by small punches, 67 by one punch, it is here that the join in the hair ceases. On 65 the band of the crown has 6 jewels with 2 pearls between each, the hair breaks at the neck and has a parallel curve at its tip, the collar front has a straight line at the throat with dots above, the first rear lobe of the collar is obscured by the hair and there is a fine edging to the pauldron. On 67 the band of the crown has 9 jewels with no pearls, there is no break in the hair, but there is a twist and outward turn at its tip, the collar front has a curved line at the throat with no dots, the first rear lobe is clear of the hair and there is large lobed edging to the pauldren." ... so when are you going to start this book Stuart? Two pages could one quality photo qualify! I think that's what's missing from all the major numismatic works! With the digital age, there is the opportunity for every punch and die to be viewable in high-definition, at all times! I can fully understand why MS took the C1 shillings no further than he did, there would not have been the quality plates to support any deeper findings in print; he would have been reduced to extremely lengthy text which, in all fairness, would never have been correctly interpreted...lord knows how difficult it can sometimes be even with images! Hah, a book! :P

Ahhh, yes, but the rubbish coins of yester-year are now the treasured coins of today! I wouldn't necessarily say white-glove everything, I don't personally have any, but the philosophy is sound I think. As a good and decent hippy of this land, I'd say it's no bad thing to live respectfully in all fields of life!

With what fakers can and do produce these days it's time we start to talk about it more. we need to get to know what they are and have faked. We could with regular members swap any fake coins we have so pepole get to know the look/feel and then pass it on with permission of the owner. There could be a data base so the coin swap will keep track of coins being swapped around so it can be returned to the owner if requested. My point exactly! There is an extremely good 1905 shilling that has been available under the exact same philosophy and terms that you have just described, only the original thread is now long buried, unless found by chance!

That far on, amazing! We definitely need the Freeman's tower shillings of C1, maybe even the Groom's version (if that didn't create too many gaps in Richard's collection)? [emoticon with tongue sticking out!]

Lodge and beat booked for week of 1st October. 7 days and nights without screaming kids (sadly probably without screaming reels as well but worth it for the peace!). Glenlivet is already stockpiled and order for Cuban cigars about to be placed Glenlivet? Ahh, for that smoky aroma of Talisker, my all time favourite autumnal drink! Ouzo for Greece!

Didn't have the foggiest idea that a number of punches made up the busts, now you've got me...just as soon as time and money permits! I was having a conversation only today about how amazing/surprising it is that such a clear, historically important, and available artefact, is so incomplete in its study. It seems hard to believe that we study the embers of a Tudor/Stuart fire-place with microscopes, but have yet to classify the finer details of the most socially conforming object of all time!

Osborne's article is in the 1984 BNJ p.164-209, just before Besly's York mint article. A very useful volume. The mentioned Sharp 1977 and Osborne 1984 papers are the best in depth for study with the Sharp having numerous updated BNJ additions along the way. It is hoped that these papers might be revised at some stage, but alas it might take someone with the a great will to do so now. I know of 34 Tower mint Charles portraits, with one of these (Sharp G3) being recognised since. The D type for example has six 'official' portraits but again one or two of these also have (now accepted) know subtle differences, so not conclusive. The Tower Half crown in my opinion is still a sleeping giant, purely for some types are more scarce/rare than generally accepted. Thanks Coin Watch...I'm staggered and very much interested in what you are doing! I hope this thread will develop into an interesting one, with maybe the potential to push the boundaries of C1xii as they are currently understood? The field is still wide open from what I can see, and this is from fresh eyes attributing their first C1 shilling just this week!