Coinery

Apologies, Richard, I'm not ignoring you, I just haven't had a chance to use the laptop today and checkout your suggestions! I have been working from the phone today, which doesn't give me all the full website features, settings etc! What phone are you using coinery? If the iphone it has an app for forums called IPB, this gives you full website functions, but its shite when predictive messaging kicks in and you don't check it before hand Thanks Azda, yes an iPhone, will check that app out! Predictive text is a pain in the arse unless you're incredibly vigilant which, on a small screen in the small hours... The keys are really close together too - the number of times I've nearly written coon for coin is immeasurable!

I'm not selling, just want to know bit more information about it... By the way, how much this coin can cost? I think on the whole people are looking for 'types', whether micro-varieties or not (whatever's your bag with that one), but an oddity, a curiosity? I'd be spending my money on a similar grade coin that could actually be classified, linking one moment in history to another, that's how it works for me at least. For me it would be nothing other than an interesting discussion coin, I'd probably take off the coin I'm wearing, and wear that instead! Now, if you can find a 16/17thC oil painting with the subject wearing the 'famous double-headed sixpence', I'll buy both. Welcome back to the forum!

Of course clipping does reduce the desirability of a coin, but it's my thoughts that it depends very much on where the clipping is...essentially, does the clipped coin still have a 'balanced' feel about it? That's what counts if I'm buying a coin for myself! Two coins can be clipped by exactly the same degree...one is as ugly to look at as sin, and the other I would happily buy and gaze at for years!

No way! That's got to be a hoax; funny business, as my old nan used to call it! That cannot surely be a legit sale? Let's give it a go! Azda, you free? I need a model!

'an it harm none!' is another!

Apologies, Richard, I'm not ignoring you, I just haven't had a chance to use the laptop today and checkout your suggestions! I have been working from the phone today, which doesn't give me all the full website features, settings etc!

Ah, that's more my thing. Since I barely have enough money for coins let alone classic cars (Dinky or otherwise) I collect rubbish ephemera and oddities. Bottle caps (of bottles I have emptied myself usually!), fossils, beach pebbles, shells, bits of bone, religious medallions and talismans, four leaved clover and stuff people have thrown away or that catch my eye and imagination. Sometimes I make them into .. assembages. Other times, they just sit in a box. That's my man! Are you sure you're not living in a caravan too? Looks a tad hippy to me!

Available to all regular* contributing members for research purposes, and in-hand education. This coin was identified and made available to all by John Stephenson of www.argentumandcoins.co.uk It has been thought reasonable that a charitable contribution to the local Air Ambulance Service be made by any member benefiting from taking receipt of this coin (http://www.theairambulanceservice.org.uk/). Any who are interested in getting a ‘feel’ for what is a worryingly good 1905 fake, please PM your address to me (coinery) and I’ll post it to you, the more the merrier. If each recipient were happy to retain the coin until such a time as a new member requests a viewing, this would save on postage costs. I’ll always happily have it returned if/when there is no further interest in studying it. Comments from those who have viewed it would, I’m sure, be of interest to all here, not forgetting this will also be accessed by those searching for Edward VII counterfeit coins on the World Wide Web. Edward VII 1905 Counterfeit Shilling Weight: 5.61g Diameter: 23.50 Depth (taken at rim): 1.60-1.68mm The coin is low-grade, but well replicated (see D.E.S image below in second post), and is heavily bag-marked, with an irregular (lumpy) right obverse field. It is plated with silver (acid-tested+ on the edge for high-grade [probably sterling] silver), however, micro-pores in the plating can be viewed especially in the lower half of the reverse (see below image in second post). The coin has an unconvincing low-relief milled edge. *defined at the discretion of the current custodian, whomever he or she may be.

The line of bagmarks(?) running along the middle of the truncation looks wrong too. I would have thought that was almost impossible to achive in normal handling. It's almost as if the raised portion of the design is cominaway from the surface. 100% agree, no way for normal circulation, looks more like it's done a few rounds in a cement mixer! However, and here's the thing I find interesting, the quality of the detail, DES, crown jewels, numerals, etc, are all so well executed that I can't see any reason why the counterfeiter would opt for such a raggy surface if his intentions were to cream it in from the collecting fraternity.

Anyone think it possible that this might be a contemporary forgery, designed only to fool an Edwardian for the sum of, well, a shilling? If you took a random shilling from circulation, back then, and then went about creating your forgeries using the coin as your model, would it matter that you just happened to have picked the rarer type? A shilling's a shilling to a forger and the spending public! Where are the others? Maybe this is one of the worst ones, looking suspicious on account of a lumpy field and not the most amazing edge...I'll bet they weren't all like that so, where are the others? Maybe taking pride of place somewhere, much as this one did! Whilst the coin is very much exposed by magnification, in-hand you'd turn it over and over quite a number of times, it's very good! Why so many 'bag marks,' if it was intended to make the best price as a more recent low-grade rarity? The 'marks' must surely have been there pre-silver plating, as it would be inconceivable that the base metal wouldn't have revealed itself if subjected to such strife, post manufacture. Not a hypothesis, just a point for debate!

What? I thought that was massive! I've only just realised it's being hung from the gallows! Female engraver then! If this sells for £300 I swear I will dig out my old engraver!

I didn't think there was VAT payable on collectables, please tell me this is just Germany we're talking about? The buyer does not pay the VAT Stuart. UK dealers all work on the VAT global accounting and Margin Schemes. It means we cannot charge VAT to the customer or we end up paying the full rate on every penny we take in rather than on the profits we make. That's assuming that your dealer is VAT registered of course. No, I meant as a seller. In 1996 I had a little wobble with the tax man, and have played him at his own game ever since! If I as much sell a lightbulb to a neighbour, I factor in the wear on my shoes walking to his house, how much space it took up in my own home, to the toilet roll I wrapped it up in to delivery it safely to his door...profit .75p, expenses .76p! I am below the VAT threshold, but this doesn't always mean you're not affected by it. I had a scare for a moment, thinking there was a 7% figure I'd overlooked, that customs would come knocking for one day! Hopefully I'm right in thinking this is not applicable to me, as I've never used an accountant, not ever, but probably should one day if I wish to remain an ageing stress-free hippy!

I didn't think there was VAT payable on collectables, please tell me this is just Germany we're talking about?

Typical traveller type! Never to be trusted!

I wondered how long it would be before they made an easy killing on eBay! Bad news for Ebay's income I would think? Does this mean £1 listing fees and 20% final value fees to offset their losses in revenue, greedy bar stewards that they are?

That's a very good point Rob. Though I don't buy 10k coins, I have bought several for £1-2k+, which means that when I spot an example on eBay that would perhaps be a nice upgrade for a relatively common coin worth only perhaps £100, I might nevertheless stick in a bid for £150 just to be sure of getting it. This doesn't mean the coin would generally be worth more than £100, just that there's a fool out there (me in this instance ) willing to pay over the odds to save the time and hassle of finding another such example. I did this very thing the other night, buying an UNC 82 grade CGS slabbed upgrade for over the odds. I can't be alone in ocassionally acting this way! There's a lot of this going on! I bid £259 on a Elizabeth 6d yesterday, thinking that was ample over the top...lost it at £278.55 If anybody on here won it, can I have a picture of the bust please! ;-)

A very good point, that may have been overlooked here!

I think what they're saying here is 'ow, Burt, it's not fair (stamps foot on floor), why can't we just say NEF? EBay gets away with it, do you really think anyone would notice (winks eye at colleague)?' Godwin gets on the PC replying 'don't worry, I have a plan, and I shall say zis only wunse, let's use our new "eBay Price Guide" to set the estimate (winks at his colleague, and sucks back a little bit of spittle and pea juice from the corner of his mouth)!' So, the first official acknowledgement that eBay are the world market leaders is numismatics, who would've thought it? 'The eBay Auction Price Guide for Numismatists'!

Ahhh, ya big ole softy, Azda!

azda, i sincerely hope that you and peckris both understand that my posts were meant in good faith and also meant to differentiate between the bad that occurs on ebay, those you have highlighted as shill bidders, those who clearly sell the utmost of polished crap, designed to mislead, and the genuine dealer, whom may have had a difference in grading to personal levels. we may all disagree on grade of a particular coin at times with bona fida dealers, that happens, we have different ideas and ideals, different knowledge of a specific coin/dies....etc etc, but it sure must be difficult to be all embracing. azda....how many times have you come on here to ask for die pairings/references for a particular penny.....loads azda....how many times have you asked for a grading on a particular coin...................................loads does that make you or any other here better than CC or Rendell........maybe yes, maybe no. but yes it does make YOU and Peckris and CC and Rendell and all the others here far and away better than the those shill bidders, crap sellers on ebay...........and that was the whole point of my original post....... im gonna leave this forum now................theres clearly no place for a prick like me here. ski Hey Ski, hang around, you've been here a long time! This thread had a few twists and turns in it, but I certainly never spotted anyone out of order, just a good stimulating look at things. Nobody should ever get sensitive about this kind of stuff, none of it's personal! Don't forget, sometimes you have to shake the tree to get at the fruit! I think plenty of fruit fell in this thread! Take it easy out there!

Extremely happy!

I mentioned CC, that i sent a coin back to him as i did'nt agree with the grade, he freely accepted the return and got my money back as did Chris Perkins i think mentioned the same. Personally, I expect dealers' grades to be accurate. After all, they will often have more grading experience than the majority of collectors. We are also often told that a dealer will only pay 50% of what a coin might be worth - therefore that is the dealer's profit margin. So when I see a dealer inflating the grade, I see that as an attempt to take an extra profit at the expense of the buyer. I too have complained about CC grading, but at least they are consistent and do accept returns. I think that's the important point here. The only sufferers - as from many dealers, auctions, and eBay - will be the inexperienced who don't realise that what they bought is over-graded. I think Nick's got it just right, really! If a professional dealer and auction house at the top of their game can't get it right, it's a poor show! You would expect nothing other than 100% from any other professional service! How about your surgeon or your defence lawyer 'trying it on'? I bought around ten victorian 'uncirculated' coins from an auction house, a good one too, and probably half were better described as GEF ( my own fault, of course, but disappointing all the same)!

Even the sharpest get stung there occasionally. The most successful strikes on e bay fall into two camps, in my experience:- a) Nice coins with a high initial bid price, which nevertheless is still nowhere near their true value. Would be bidders are strangely put off by the high start price, and often by-pass it completely, leaving someone else to make the only punt at the original price, thus bagging a real bargain. b ) Really high end coins which would be better off in a proper auction. They will sell, for sure, but usually end up at between 55% to 75% of what they could potentially realise elsewhere. It's a real mistake for high quality expensive coins to be put on e bay. Gambling strikes which may or may not pay off, are on those with poor photography, where the coin cannot properly be seen. This often puts buyers off, leaving the speculator room for a potential killing, or to get their fingers burned. I'd agree with this analysis apart from the one factor you missed out - certain key dates that somehow seem to do far better on eBay than elsewhere, I'm thinking of things like 1903 and 1905 halfcrowns. Regarding the above point b I absolutely agree with the percentages, but I'm not sure which auctions outside of eBay are being talked about for better prices? I spent a few days, six month's back, looking at the realised prices for a number of major auctions...I didn't find that many there that were making Spink book prices either, and sellers premiums aren't any better than eBay (mostly). I know minus 5% has been mentioned before but, generally speaking, eBay aren't off the scale at 10%, and they know it! Does anybody know how often nice coins make their book price in major auctions? Would it be more often than not? I mean, the book prices are set according to the major auction results, so one would think they must more often do, it just doesn't look that way. Do you think books like Spink attempts to 'drive' the market, rather than be an honest reflection OF the market? Out and out raities, best known or way better than average pieces you can disregard the book. Just below that will try to push the boundaries, but not too much. Mid-range pieces will probably make around book after you have added buyer's premium, low grades won't sell unless an acknowledged rarity. Spink doesn't attempt to drive the market prices. As a rule, there will always be a specific coin that goes way over the odds and the reason for it doing so filters into the market gossip. Consequently the yearly price revisions will not reflect a high price in full. We all notice the lots that sell for more than expected, but rarely comment on those that mark time in keeping with the estimate. The latter is a truer reflection of where the market is at and will probably go in the future. The top end is driven by a larger number of people who recognise relative quality and have sufficient funds to not worry about overpaying on occasions. If you are happy paying £10K or more for a coin, it doesn't really matter if you pay £300 for a £100 coin in the overall context of the collection as the overpayment will be a praction of a percentage point of its total value. The problem with overpaying on ebay is that most culprits are doing so out of ignorance with respect to the general market, what dealers have on offer (usually at substantially lower prices), have a reliance on the quoted grade as gospel, and mostly have never seen a high grade coin with which to make a considered judgement. Thanks for the feedback, Rob! I haven't forgotten our most recent discussion, by the way, I'm on the case! Albeit slowly!

I'd personally get your trials done re the cookies pop-up's, and then get rid, at least until the law states that EVERYONE has to comply and it becomes commonplace. I'd say I felt pretty comfortable on a PC but, in all honesty, when i was being asked whether i actually WANT to accept something that we know happens all the time, I thought 'fork that' and got off the site! Looked good for the two pages I sneaked a peak at around your pop-up's, though!