Coinery

I think we are seeing your images, 1, 4, and 6 (top line) as a clear progression of wear (or weak strike) of a knobbly structure, that ultimately ends up looking like an angular C. The story starts at picture 1 for me. Is this an on-die repair (on this limited evidence it doesn't look like an additional overstrike, on account of the prescision), or is it a reworked punch? If it's a reworked punch, was it meant to be significant (an identifier), or simply serving to make the pomegranate a more satisfactory looking fruit?

OK, I obviously have poor images to deal with here, as do you, but I'm initially seeing this (red-line) shape as a consistent thing (and as a starting point, because there's obviously an upper part, connected or separate). Below are a list of points your images raised for me. (edit to add this cropped image for ease) The key thing for me is the first image (top left) which has a 'knobbly' pomegranate-like surface, which I can easily see as flattening to a letter shape when not fully struck up or worn (the beginnings of which can be seen in the fourth image along [top])? The pomegranate punch is obviously knackered, as shown by your two larger images. Would there have been any attempts to 'doctor' it on the die? Can we rule that out? I'm surprised to see the shape (?overmark) so precisely placed on this many examples, given the size of the coin? Could there have been some recutting of the punch itself, only to make it more knobbly and palatable as a pomegranate? Given the fractures in the C-shape, is there any possibility that there were two 'bobbly-pomegranate-L-shapes' used to improve/enhance the broken mark on the die? The upper part struck first, perhaps, and the lower, second part (the bits I've drawn) laid in on top (though the amazing consistency of positioning probably rules this out)? Your investigation will be an easy thing to prove, one way or another, we just need some really high-grade examples/images, which span the disintegration of the pomegranate and appearance of this anomaly?

No, can't be a mint error, there wouldn't have been enough copper in a 1 penny flan to fill up that much of a crater in a die! Not without losing the reverse design, and leaving a substantial opposing crater in the middle of it!

I've never studied the dies of this type (I'm sure it's cosha?), but what a good way to make a couple of hundred quid on an alibaba coin? Mash it up a bit ,cut the edge off a bit, solder on a couple silver findings (jewellery bits to everyone else), wear it down a bit, give it a bit of .925 silver wash and, hey presto, £300...thank-you very much! Northumberland shilling next! Where's me chisel and that bit of silver solder gone?

Rob, will definitely take a look for images! Looking at those images gives me a slightly different idea, but hard to say at the moment? Can you email me the montage so I can draw on it to propose another angle, which you'll be able to refute (or not), if you have access to any of the coins.

Totally agree with you on this point!And totally on your wavelength re being hyper-critical, I'm exactly the same, and wouldn't be interested in either of the 2 coins you've recently flagged up! Keep talking that straight talk, Sir! It keeps a healthy debate going about these issues of hammered grading and quality! It's great to have a bit more hammered banter on here! Even Paulus is 'getting it'! We'll soon have him fully converted!

Don't tell him you're a Scot, that might send him over the edge! Again, it's that thing about grade and value! The face of the 3B is mostly soft in the sixth coinage, take a look at my old example here http://george-coins.co.uk/Elizabeth-I-ABell-Shilling-P3128309.aspx His isn't so bad, it's just a bitty, not very pretty, kind of coin. Was your's an A, I can't remember now? Edit: By bitty I mean clogged beads, unbalanced weaknesses, and scruffy at the edge.

Not ignored at all, couldn't have asked for more help. Learnt a couple of things about tracing IP addresses that I never knew before!It was great to have my missing limb stitched back on again! Cheers, Chris!

I'm going to have to get them to sell mine!

I tell you what does spoil the coin for me, is the damage/flat spot at the beading in the obverse right field, and the reciprocal area on the reverse. Be a belter otherwise!

Oooh, that's a difficult one, Dave, given we can't see Neil's coin in high res! I think the coronet coin has the more pleasing portrait, myself, though a simpler design, of course! I still think grading hammered is not for me, there are too many variables involved, and it seldom has any real bearing on value, though insurance companies would demand it I guess? It's like that Elizabeth I shilling John Newman's got finishing on eBay. It's not a rip-roaring grade or tone, but it's a million times better than a lot of its contemporaries a full grade higher! What do you reckon on that 3d bust of mine? That's got to be EF? Nearly as-struck possibly? It would be interesting to know the weight of the J1 shilling, just to calculate how much of the missing legend is clipped? Big money, all the same!

To be fair, Dave, he's only saying the portrait is GEF. Shame it isn't the big crown though! Could do with higher resolution images, really. A lesser mark, but not excessively so, I'd have thought...not that I know anything of value about J1! What you want Dave is this...a genuine unrecorded obverse on this 1564 3d of Elizabeth! I spoke to Chris Comber and he concurs with my thoughts that this obverse was an unused (we think) die from 1561/62. The rusty die, unclogged bust, and Rose 5 supports this theory. http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Rare-Unrecorded-Obverse-Elizabeth-I-1564-3d-Threepence-Bust-3F-Reverse-BCW-BA-h-/231504730087?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_3&hash=item35e6c1d7e7 Also a very rare Bust 3F Cross-Crosslet Halfgroat scheduled for the weekend too!

They've both got a long LONG way to go to beat Elizabeth I and Charles I for portrait styles and types!

People are totally bonkers, I just don't get it?

Not really serious contenders then! I'll look forward to seeing those!

Very nice coin that!

Good luck with them! I'm a window shopper for everything bar cauliflowers at the moment!

I like the line stating you should avoid 1866 and 1871 halfcrowns, as these are forgeries. OK, thanks for the info..Quoting his eBay blurb here "Victoria's Half Crowns were struck from 1839 to 1901, none were struck between 1851 and 1873 because of the striking of the new decimal coin the Florin which was struck in its place. " Since when did decimalisation come into effect between 1851 and 1873? Here's another one - 'only' £29.99 on a BIN. Apparently it's now a pattern! Somebody's knocking these out somewhere. Strange thing is, they are worn to differing degrees, and the first one really looks as though it's circulated? I wonder if it did? The milled edge on the BIN one is pretty good isn't it?

Many happy returns of the day, Sir!

They're all at it now! 371277524598 The fleur de Lis from the centre of a coronet/crown PM has now become the stand-alone obverse mark to create this 'unique mule' fleur de lis/coronet! Honestly!

I'm looking forward to your email to the seller. I might have to point out to him that he's got a unique bust on his trial piece, that's hitherto been unrecorded in combination with the lion.As if it wasn't rare enough already!

Hah! I can't open links or view images at the moment because my internet connection is only GPRS, but Clive kindly gave me a belly laugh by sending the link to my email address (where I can use wifi - long story)!Anyway, not bad, he's only 9 marks out! I'm guessing he doesn't think that's a PM key on the reverse then? If he only but realised that he would have a very unique coin indeed if it WAS a PM lion, as the bust used on his coin hadn't been created yet! On the obverse, I'm guessing he's mistaking the A of SPINA for a privy mark? I can't even decipher what's between the A and E, but it won't be a lion!

It's a shame though, isn't it, all those kids living under that umbrella! What you say is true but, I for one, feel happy to sacrifice my own group cohesiveness in exchange for a society that's decent and kind! If only that could come about!

Hah, yes! We even put beers/wine on our shopping list, now! We might forget otherwise...we kid ourselves, at least!

Only on a friday, eh?