Paulus

Thats a great article, thanks Michael So I will have to go down the expert/dealer examination in hand route again (still got my dud Charlie one shilling), would anyone care to offer up their services? I have just informed the seller that I am having it looked at.

I agree it looks like a fake which has been accepted into the market and retailed by an honest dealer.Oh dear. This is a bit of a nightmare isn't it ... Downies stated 2 or 3 times that if I obtain a certificate that it is a copy, from IBSCC, within 12 months even, they will refund the seller who should refund me etc etc So, has anyone tried/heard of IBSCC (see email from Downies above)? To be honest I'm no longer sure that if they passed it as genuine I would be satisfied! International Bureau of the Suppression of Counterfeit Coins http://www.coinscatalog.com/forums/showthread.php?t=223 Thanks Garry

I agree it looks like a fake which has been accepted into the market and retailed by an honest dealer.Oh dear. This is a bit of a nightmare isn't it ... Downies stated 2 or 3 times that if I obtain a certificate that it is a copy, from IBSCC, within 12 months even, they will refund the seller who should refund me etc etc So, has anyone tried/heard of IBSCC (see email from Downies above)? To be honest I'm no longer sure that if they passed it as genuine I would be satisfied!

Thanks Nick Here is another picture I have with me that no-one else has seen yet, I may be able to take some alternative/better ones when I return home in a week or so:

Thanks Nick Here are all the pictures I have with me, I may be able to take some alternative/better ones when I return home in a week or so:

That's an excellent but worrying post, but the one I am after has pictures and a report about the actual places in China where they mass-produce copies, sell them as copies, and then these get sold on as genuine ... anyone know the post I mean? Here is yet another one for sale on eBay, with a broken second "G": http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/200706252268?ssPageName=STRK:MEWAX:IT&_trksid=p3984.m1423.l2648 In this case, Rob I think said it was fine and the seller was sound (correct me if I'm wrong Rob?)

That's an excellent but worrying post, but the one I am after has pictures and a report about the actual places in China where they mass-produce copies, sell them as copies, and then these get sold on as genuine ... anyone know the post I mean?

Does anyone know where I can find the post that contains the excellent pics/report about Chinese copying, I have searched to no avail? I promised I would get it to Downies ... AdThanksVance

Here is the eBay BIN ad. Rob was kind enough to verify for me that it was the exact same coin Downies auctioned, but I except that that is no guarantee of authenticity! http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/330679474782?ssPageName=STRK:MEWNX:IT&_trksid=p3984.m1439.l2648 Further update under the Northumberland Shilling topic

I took my Northumberland shilling to Downies in Melbourne today, who auctioned it to my seller in October 2011. The auctioneer I saw had 'no doubt' that it was genuine, but worryingly stated that Chinese forgeries would be a much higher grade!! Sounded very naive to me. Anyway, after I left them he contacted the guy who auctioned it and emailed me as below: Hello Paul, I just spoke to the original owner of the Northumberland Shilling. This is his response, for what it’s worth. He said he has owned it for years. So long, in fact, that he can’t remember exactly how long. I asked him did he purchase it in the last 12 months, and in particular, on the internet? He said definitely not, it was part of his English collection which he has been selling off for several years. The Northumberland has been in his collection for quite a long time and he only sold it through our auction after he managed to acquire a better one. We’ve been dealing with this man for a number of years and I believe he would have truthfully told us if he had bought it recently from a dubious source. We have always found him to be an honest and genuine client who I know would not want a fellow collector to be deceived by a coin he had sold. Once again, please seek opinions on the coin from your local dealers and if you have any further concerns please seek to have it authenticated through the IBSCC (International Bureau for the Suppression of Counterfeit Coins) a division of IAPN. http://www.iapn-coins.org/ Regards, John Freestone Australian Coin Auctions Ph: +61 3 8677-8800 Fx: +61 3 8677-8899 Email: auctions@downies.com Web: www.downies.com Has anyone used IBSCC or know much about them?

Here is the eBay BIN ad. Rob was kind enough to verify for me that it was the exact same coin Downies auctioned, but I except that that is no guarantee of authenticity! http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/330679474782?ssPageName=STRK:MEWNX:IT&_trksid=p3984.m1439.l2648

I have the coin packaged up at home ready to post back to the seller (I am in Australia until next weekend), he finally told me his address yesterday and has agreed a full refund, all going through eBay Resolution Centre. He claims he has had his own experts examine it and found nothing wrong, but if true they can only have been judging from the photos. I havent done this before and have a question - he isnt ging to refund me until he gets his coin back, what recourse do I have if he simply doesnt repay me after that, does anyone know? Does eBay step in? Thanks for any advice! Also, I have no idea how to check whether it's silver, does anyone know? I have to confess I have never had to send a coin back in these circumstances before, I'm as lost as you! I just hope you paid via PayPal? Even with registered post the guy could say 'you've sent me a washer, where's my coin,' so no real protection even with that! I don't think I'd buy a coin off eBay without using PayPal, unless I knew the seller, and received a consistent service from them. Re the silver testing...people will be bringing a crucifix to my 'van...but a micro-spot of silver testing solution on the edge of the coin, for the second or two it takes to confirm high-grade silver, is what I have done in the past with coins that have niggled me! I am more paranoid than most about even the smallest blemishes on my own coins so, I can reassure you, If you've got that hammered coin ready by a running tap and, the second the micro-spot of solution turns red, you plunge it into the flow and flush it well off, you won't even see a mark where the spot has been, nothing, no clean silver spot, nothing! All you are left with is a coin that you either finally feel happy about, or a potential fake. Of course there are many other factors, apart from silver content, but knowing whether it's sterling or not is a massive step forward on the Sherlock trail. Try some on the edge of a nasty old BV coin and see. I'd happily test a 1k+ coin with this method, if I was remotely unhappy about that aspect of it! Usual disclaimers, of course...at your own risk, they are acids after all! Thanks for all the advice guys, the coin will however have been returned to the seller by Royal Mail Special Delivery by the time I return home, and yes I did pay by PayPal - excuse my ignorance, but what difference does that make? (If for example the seller does not have sufficient funds?) Paypal will simply take the money from his PP account and next time anything goes into it, it will then be deducted. It will be taken and you will get your cash back, so don't worry about that. As has been stated, just make sure the return is traceable. Now for your next coin, where did you get that Northumberland Shilling? Ebay? Ah, yes, The Northumberland Shilling ... is with me here in Melbourne where I happen to be on business, and I am taking it to Downies in Melbourne tomorrow who auctioned it to my seller back in October. And yes, I got it from eBay on a BIN, I wont be doing major purchases on eBay ever again, way too worrying and stressful! So I am going to see what they think of it, and whether they have any extra provenance that can be provided. What do you think of it from the pics Dave?

I have the coin packaged up at home ready to post back to the seller (I am in Australia until next weekend), he finally told me his address yesterday and has agreed a full refund, all going through eBay Resolution Centre. He claims he has had his own experts examine it and found nothing wrong, but if true they can only have been judging from the photos. I havent done this before and have a question - he isnt ging to refund me until he gets his coin back, what recourse do I have if he simply doesnt repay me after that, does anyone know? Does eBay step in? Thanks for any advice! Also, I have no idea how to check whether it's silver, does anyone know? I have to confess I have never had to send a coin back in these circumstances before, I'm as lost as you! I just hope you paid via PayPal? Even with registered post the guy could say 'you've sent me a washer, where's my coin,' so no real protection even with that! I don't think I'd buy a coin off eBay without using PayPal, unless I knew the seller, and received a consistent service from them. Re the silver testing...people will be bringing a crucifix to my 'van...but a micro-spot of silver testing solution on the edge of the coin, for the second or two it takes to confirm high-grade silver, is what I have done in the past with coins that have niggled me! I am more paranoid than most about even the smallest blemishes on my own coins so, I can reassure you, If you've got that hammered coin ready by a running tap and, the second the micro-spot of solution turns red, you plunge it into the flow and flush it well off, you won't even see a mark where the spot has been, nothing, no clean silver spot, nothing! All you are left with is a coin that you either finally feel happy about, or a potential fake. Of course there are many other factors, apart from silver content, but knowing whether it's sterling or not is a massive step forward on the Sherlock trail. Try some on the edge of a nasty old BV coin and see. I'd happily test a 1k+ coin with this method, if I was remotely unhappy about that aspect of it! Usual disclaimers, of course...at your own risk, they are acids after all! Thanks for all the advice guys, the coin will however have been returned to the seller by Royal Mail Special Delivery by the time I return home, and yes I did pay by PayPal - excuse my ignorance, but what difference does that make? (If for example the seller does not have sufficient funds?)

I have the coin packaged up at home ready to post back to the seller (I am in Australia until next weekend), he finally told me his address yesterday and has agreed a full refund, all going through eBay Resolution Centre. He claims he has had his own experts examine it and found nothing wrong, but if true they can only have been judging from the photos. I havent done this before and have a question - he isnt ging to refund me until he gets his coin back, what recourse do I have if he simply doesnt repay me after that, does anyone know? Does eBay step in? Thanks for any advice! Also, I have no idea how to check whether it's silver, does anyone know?

I have the coin packaged up at home ready to post back to the seller (I am in Australia until next weekend), he finally told me his address yesterday and has agreed a full refund, all going through eBay Resolution Centre. He claims he has had his own experts examine it and found nothing wrong, but if true they can only have been judging from the photos. I havent done this before and have a question - he isnt ging to refund me until he gets his coin back, what recourse do I have if he simply doesnt repay me after that, does anyone know? Does eBay step in? Thanks for any advice!

I was wondering what members thought of this before the bidding ends (soon after midday on Sunday 12/2/2012): http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/130643290621?ssPageName=STRK:MEWAX:IT&_trksid=p3984.m1423.l2648 I am finding myself drawn to it even though it seems like it will go for a significant premium on GF (although I would gauge the Rev as nVF)

An eBay seller with just 4 sales to his name, who claims to have dug it up in Lincolnshire ...

Hi, welcome to the forum! I only know about eBay, you can save an advanced search, for example auctions about particular coins or containing certain words, and it will automatically email you when a match comes up - a few too many emails about the same coin, but it works well for me! Hope this helps

I hate it, rare date or not ... perhaps the seller meant to write 'a little worn' ... toned indeed!!!

Brilliant question!

1/2 an inch here in South London ...

I couldn't agree more! What you have said captures the whole spirit of it all. When I was 18 I bought an old Jaguar 420G for pennies and stripped the whole thing to pieces in my parents' back garden...lovingly dealing with every aspect of the rebuild was the thing that made that car special. I could afford one now, that is far better condition, and maybe even concours, but I wouldn't have anything like the same love and interest in owning something that has been grafted on by someone else...but many are the flashy classical car owners who go out and buy the best and don't even know what waxoyl is! They're classic car equivalents of the slab collectors, but there is no denying they are out there! Hanging around forums like this, making a few mistakes, battling out the details of a grade, is what makes it so fascinating for me! Totally with you on that one Coinery, same goes for Proof coins for me too ...

Being too new to this site to have taken part in the previous heated discussions, and holding back a bit, I would like to say that as a collector I hate them with a passion, for many if not all the reasons eloquently articulated by others. The first one I bought that was slabbed was immediately broken out of it (carefully I might add, with the aid of a hammer and chisel). But I can see the point for sellers, investors and dealers, if their integrity survives ...

Anyone care to make me an offer on this before I list on eBay on 29/1? Please PM me if you do, thanks