jaggy

Paulus, your photos are great. It just emphasises the importance of having the right lens and lighting. I can take okay photos with a good camera, a normal lens and flash. But your photos show that so much more can be done with a good macro lens and the right lights.

Just a comment on your excellent post ......... Any investment company that offers a "promised return" is lying through their teeth. It simply isn't possible unless they are illegally manipulating the market or involved in a Madoff type scheme. The best they can do is to demonstrate a range of possible returns based on previous performance but with the caveat that this is not an indicator of future returns. As we used to say .... if it sounds too good to be true then it probably is.

You are probably right but, to be honest, I don't really know. As a collector, I'm only really focused on my own area of interest. However, when really choice sixpences come up for auction in the USA they usually get good prices although, recently, I have been able to buy good coins cheaper than in a UK auction. The US market is primarily interested in US coins. I would put collectors of world coins in the USA at around 15% of the total (based on a wholly unscientific review of registry point tables on the NGC site). As to the investment market, someone once put up a list of the U.K. coins that are targeted.

Well, I think we all want to get the best grade we can and better coins have always cost more than those in a lower grade. For me, the big difference in the market today compared to when I started collecting is its internationalisation. With the advent of online auctions and the availability of good photos (Spink excepted) you can pretty much buy from anywhere. The other difference, although I think it is smaller, is the entry of investors into the coin market. Clearly, the USA is a huge market and their buying power will influence trends. But internationalisation will push the trend for greater standardisation so that buyers, no matter where they are situated, know what they are getting. That, for me, is where TPG and slabbing comes in. I have always been an agnostic when it comes to TPG and slabbing. Most of my coins are 'raw' and those that are slabbed are as a result of an accident of purchase rather than a conscious decision. However, I have noticed on here a gradual change in opinions with regard to slabbing over the past few years and there is certainly a greater acceptance of it than there was. That might be reflective of a gradual change in the UK market and one which CGS was trying to exploit. As someone who lives in the USA, I do wonder whether I should be having my raw coins slabbed if only to protect their economic value in this market.

Anyone have any views re: PCGS vs NGC? Most of my slabbed coins are NGC but that is just an accident of purchase.

I have certainly become more 'picky' over quality/grade in my old age.

I am sure they do. As I said, it depends on the coin. But, for the coin I just bought, when I factored in my estimate of the cost of buying in an auction, plus the buyers premium, plus postage and packing, the Atlas price for the coin was pretty competitive with what I would pay at auction. Obviously, one needs to have a view as to what a coin 'should' cost. For my area of interest, which are sixpences, I generally have a perspective as to what a coin should cost and from being active in the auction marketplace over the past few years, I have a good idea what a given coin will probably go for. So you look for where you think you will get the best price. For me, auctions are likely to remain my primary source of coins. But I have no problem using reputable dealers if they have the coin I want at a competitive price.

I don't. I generally look on the DNW and London Coins sites. I will also check prices at Heritage in the USA. i have tended to buy primarily from auctions. However, I am softening that stance. By the time you add in the buyers premium (17.5% at Heritage and LC and 20% at DNW) then auctions are not necessarily the cheapest. For the first time I have bought a coin from Atlas Numismatics here in the USA. So no buyers premium and postage and packing is included as I live in the USA. Depending on the coin, that can make them - and other dealers - quite competitive.

Probably a mistake to look too closely at the estimates. I usually do a bit of research in the various auction archives to try to see what comparable coins have sold for. Quality coins often sell for over estimate and sometimes for well over estimate. The buyer really needs to take a view as to what he/she is willing to pay to win the coin rather than getting hung up on the estimate. Sometimes you will get lucky and there is not a lot of competition. Sometimes you will have to pay up to get that coin.

Obviously one can make money on coins which is why we have dealers and auction houses. I would class coins as an 'alternative investment' a bit like art or antiques. In a large portfolio, one might have a couple of percent invested that way. The problem is that people like Merrill Lynch who manage billions in investments probably don't have the expertise for this kind of investment and, for that reason, will avoid it. So coins as an investment are likely to be a marginal product at best. Gibbons might fancy themselves as an investment manager but they will always be on the fringes of the financial community.

I started collecting in the mid-1980s and was pretty active for around 10 years. Then my career 'took off' and professional life dominated everything else. So, along with other hobbies, my coin collection took a back seat. I took early retirement around 6 years ago and began to get back into my hobbies and especially coin collecting. That was a bit of a missed opportunity as my pre-retirement disposable income was a lot more than it is now. When I think of some of the coins I could have bought ........... I don't, however, spend most of my time thinking about coins (although into spend quite a lot). There are other things in life. My collecting is pretty targeted and I know what I am looking for. I generally buy from three or four established auction houses and my interest tends to peak around those sales. That said, I enjoy discussing the hobby (especially on this site), looking at photos of coins that others have bought and looking at my own coins. The perfectionist in me is always looking with a critical eye and updating that 'upgrade list'.

A few things there for me. At least one 'net new' and a couple of upgrades.

I had a look at NGC prices and, from what I can see, for most of my coins it would cost me $35 + 1% fair market value. So a coin valued at, say, $400 would cost me $39. However, if I join NGC at the Elite level for $299, I get 10% off plus a $150 credit. So, $39 now become $35. That could be worthwhile if, one day, I decide to slab the bulk of my coins.

I can understand why collectors want to slab their coins although, personally, I'm an agnostic on the subject. I can also understand why collectors might want a TPG to grade their coins. Now, I will admit that I have never really looked into the financials of having coins slabbed and graded. However, I don't understand why anyone would want to have CGS/LCGS slab and grade their coins given that they have no general acceptance in the market other than London Coins auctions and they use a completely different grading scale to other, more established, TPGs. Why would anyone use CGS/LCGS rather than NGC or PCGS?

Heritage have this sixpence up for auction this evening. It is certified PCGS as a 9 over 8. However, when I look closely at the coin it appears to have been double struck. The first T in Britt is double struck as is the R and the X in Rex. Same for the G in George. I am away at the moment and don't have any of my reference books so would appreciate any comments or thoughts. http://coins.ha.com/itm/great-britain/great-britain-george-iii-6-pence-1819-8-ms64-pcgs-/a/231631-61270.s?ic2=mytracked-lotspage-lotlinks-12202013

I just had a look at their sixpences and I am unimpressed. High prices for questionable quality.

Yes, I agree.

15,840.

Yes, another one I was able to buy from the Willis Collection in 1991. For these really rare dates, you need patience, a large budget and the hope that a really good collection comes onto the market.

Also, 1821 BBitanniar ... does not show up very often.

Of those ..... I just bought an 1827 in GVF at London Coins. They don't show up very often. 1848 ... still waiting for one of those to appear at auction. 1854 ... there have been a couple of examples in the last two years. 1862 ... there was one at Heritage but you don't often see them 1863 ... rare but they do show up at auction fairly often. I bought mine at Heritage in MS65 for a pretty fair price. 1869 ... bought mine at Glendinning's (ex. Willis) in 1991. Have not really been monitoring auctions for them. 1870 ... bought one at DNW three years ago ... same as above, not monitoring. 1879 ... with die number .... still in the market for this one. 1882 .. I now have two but it took me a long time to cover this date. 1893 ... seen a couple of these at auction over the past few years but hard to get in good condition. Other Victoria sixpences ...... There are quite a lot of varieties and errors some of which are more common than others. 1844 - large and small 44 ..... shows up reasonably often. 1850 & 1855 - both 5 over 3 and fairly rare. 1878 - 8 over 7 1878 - Dritanniar - hard to find in good condition as this batch was sent to Cyprus and most are heavily worn. 1887 Patterns - some interesting coins here but hard to find. 1887 Errors (e.g. R over V) - more common than ESC leads one to believe.

When it comes to grading, whether it be TPGs or auction houses, confidence is everything as are generally accepted standards. Whether we like slabbing or not, the main US TPGs do have the confidence of their market. Sure, they make the odd mistake but the vast majority of times they get it right. And the ability of the investor/collector/dealer/etc. to go on to the TPG site, type in the slab number and get a match is key to establishing confidence. For me, London Coins, CGS or whoever is doing this has made a couple of serious mistakes. First, they tried to create a slabbing market in the UK where there really was not a lot of demand. Second, they chose to adopt a different grading standard to everyone else. Not for them the American numeric standard or the traditional UK grades. Nope, they had to have their own scale. Third, they are making it hard for the consumer which is restricting the market. The reason slabbing and TPG works in the USA is because the buyer demands it. If you want to get a good price for your coin then you need to have it slabbed and graded by a TPG. The buyer has confidence in the TPG because they are independent of the seller, because the grading system is well understood and because the buyer has access to the database to validate the coin. One gets the impression that London Coins/CGS are only in it for themselves and to make as much money as possible.They are neither looking after the buyer not the seller. And the reason it is not working is because 1) the market is not big enough to make a profit and 2) the market doesn't understand the value proposition. That has led to them making business decisions which undermine the confidence of both buyers and sellers.

Indeed .... and I don't have them all yet.

Intersting thing about my own area of interest, sixpences, is that the more I delve into it and the more I buy, the more I find to buy. In fact my 'buy list' seems to get longer and not shorter as I identify this or that variety. Also, I have no problem in buying multiple examples of the same coin and I am always looking to upgrade.

I had a turbo problem on my Audi Q5 about 6 years ago. The turbo would simply shut itself down and you had to stop the car and start it again to get it working. Turned out it was a software problem. The dealer installed a new release of the (presumably) turbo software and the problem went away never to return. We are now on our second Q5 2.0T and very happy with it.