jaggy

This one sold for 700 at DNW. Condition is not too dissimilar to yours. http://www.dnw.co.uk/auction-archive/catalogue-archive/lot.php?department=Coins&lot_id=110310

I have a 1879 sixpence. It has no die number and 118 teeth. ESC lists a variety with no die number and 122 teeth as well as a variety with a die number and no mention of teeth. However, it does not list a variety that has no die number and fewer teeth. Do I have something unusual here or is ESC just not as comprehensive as it might be?

Thanks to Rob, Davies is bought, paid for and in the mail.

Rob ... thanks for that. Looks like I probably need to invest in a copy of Davies.

That would be a tricky one because we all have different interests. I could probably give you a top 50/100 for 'affordable' sixpences. Then again, my definition of 'affordable' might be different to yours.

A significant number are out of reach of any collector. There are some commoner pieces on the list such as the Henry VIII testoon or 1841 halfcrown, many of which are held by ordinary collectors. It is mainly a list of seriously rare coins. It's safe to say that if the 'investment' chaps stuck to that list, they would take a very long time to build up a portfolio. The plantagenet hammered gold is fairly abundant as is some of the milled, but the tudor gold section contains some serious rarities as does the Saxon. They would also take a long time to make any money because, with very few exceptions, the only people who could really afford their prices would be other investors.

The other problem with 'returns' is that you cannot really 'mark to market' for a piece that is so rare that there is no market. So the value that gets put on it is what you think someone might pay rather than a solid history of similar coins fetching given prices over a period of time.

https://www.stanleygibbons.com/medias/sys_master/8861642424350/coinindex2012.pdf Very interesting. Only one coin on there that would interest me. It struck me too that many of the pieces there are out and out rarities which have always created a free for all when they come around. Given these buyers are not driven by collecting motives, one can only assume that the strength outside the 'investment' pieces is simply due to increased demand from 'normal' collectors. Bit of a blurred distinction here as many 'normal' collectors don't like parting with their coins for less than they paid. Having said that, a person I am familiar with wanted to buy for investment reasons, but wasn't patient enough and so lost money on the sale. C'est la vie. The amount of money that generally flows though investment managers probably dwarves the amount available to ordinary collectors. A lot of these funds probably have a minimum commitment of US$ 250k or more. Where you have a lot of money chasing a finite resource you get inflation.

Well ... yes and no. You really need an MS65 or better to attract the big money. As a regular bidder at Heritage I have noticed how prices rocket as soon as you get above MS65. Second, you need to get the coin into a 'signature' sale as they tend to attract higher prices than the more normal internet based ones do.

https://www.stanleygibbons.com/medias/sys_master/8861642424350/coinindex2012.pdf Very interesting. Only one coin on there that would interest me.

This has become a very interesting discussion so thanks to all the participants! A couple of things I am taking from it. First, the presence of investors is contributing to a general inflation in the price of coins. Second, it is pushing the price of certain coins out of the reach of ordinary investors. For example, a pattern 1887 sixpence in gold fetched $17,625 (in BP) at Heritage. Third, the impact of investors is especially noticeable at certain specific sales (e.g. Newman, Slaney) possibly because of the importance of Provenance and/or because these sales contain more desirable coins at other 'ordinary' sales. Thus, prices at these sales tend to be considerably higher for all coins and not just the most desirable. Clearly, as someone who has been a collector since 1985, I can see the general inflation in coin prices and especially because I still have all my auction receipts from back then. However, my financial frame of reference has also changed since then so higher prices do not shock me as much as it might some. As a result, the impact of investors has very rarely prevented me from acquiring the coins that I want possibly because my interests generally do not coincide with theirs. The thing about the investment market is that it come and goes. For example, and with some exceptions, the value of antiques is quite depressed compared to where they were some years ago. Coins could quite easily suffer the same fate as interest in them as a diversification vehicle wanes. I also think that this could be tied to interest rates. With rates so low, investors are looking to other areas which offer a better potential return. We have our retirement dosh with a well known money manager and last year the 'alternatives' piece (not coins) of our portfolio returned 15%. If interest rates were higher, we might not be as motivated to take on the extra risk that 'alternatives' brings.

I'd assumed that was you. There are some mind boggling numbers here. Very important not to get caught up in the feeding frenzy. Agreed. Discipline is so important at auction.

I bid on lot 468 but was quite a lot under the hammer. Bit of a blessing in disguise as there are a number of coins at London Auctions that are high on my buy list.

Lot 367 just went for 135,000 pounds. Own up ... who was it?

Finally managed to look at this catalogue through one of the links on this page. There is a lot in it for me so I am clearly going to have to be selective and targeted in my bidding. Edit: There are also a few fairly rare coins that I already own. I will be interested to see how they do as a guide to value.

Same here.

I looked at the catalogue and decided there was nothing there of interest to me.

Double post

Same here, and I only started out in 2009-10. In fact I am quite surprised by Jaggy's comment: "I estimate that the value of my collection has gone up by 77% since I started collecting around 1985" - 77% in 30 years? - that's less than 2% per annum - is that borne out by the average change in Spink book prices since 1985, does anyone know? Bear in mind that this is a cumulative estimate and includes coins purchased recently as well as 30 years ago. To give a more specific example, I bought a James I sixpence in EF in 1993 from Buckland Dix and Wood for £156. I sold a very similar one in a private sale via Heritage quite recently for £278 net of costs. So for that specific coin, my profit would be 78% net of all costs in around 20 years (I still have the original coin). Obviously, different coins will do better or worse. I have two 1878 Dritanniar sixpences both graded GVF. One cost me £62 in 1984 (Joseph Lepczyk) and the other cost £55 in 1992 (Glendinings). I would expect to net £250 for each (after all costs) today. So that is a pretty good improvement. On the other hand, I bought a 1825 sixpence graded AUNC from Downie-Lepczyk in 1986 for £75 and another 1825 sixpence graded MS63 from Heritage in 2013 for £118. But if I were to sell it today I would get £118 less around 20% so £95; an increase of just 26% in 30 years. As with any other investment category, you can make money on coins. But they have to be the right coins, the buying and selling costs eat into your profit and, for the investor, there are no dividends or other owner benefits while the coin is owned.

I estimate that the value of my collection has gone up by 77% since I started collecting around 1985. But that is at retail. If I subtracted selling costs of, say, 20%, that reduces my total gain to around 41% over a 30 year period. Maybe at the right auction I could get a bit more. But I could also get a bit less. That introduces too much risk into the process for me. By way of comparison, my retirement dosh which is placed in a 'moderately conservative' and pretty diversified portfolio with a well known manager has been doing around 7% a year. Needless to say, I am a collector and not an investor.

Not at all the same thing. When you invest in a high risk startup you are looking for a return of 3-10 times your money in a roughly 5-8 year time period with a high risk of the business failing and losing all of it. With coins you generally don't have the same upside potential or the same downside risk over a similar time period. Coins are not a good investment vehicle. First, the costs of buying and selling are too high. Second, the historical returns taking into account those costs are simply not there. When you are paying around 20% commissions on both ends (at auction) or paying the profit a dealer wants then that is eating your profit. Of course you can make money on coins. But it really requires a collector's knowledge (rather than an investor's knowledge) to take advantage of undervalued pieces and to get a level of undervalue that compensates for buy/sell commission is rare. Third, coins don't pay a dividend (like many shares) and you cannot live in them like houses. So there are no compensating benefits while you hold them.

Thanks Unfortunately, my photography isn't as good as it should be. I have other coins that look much better in real life than they do in my photos.

1853 Proof Sixpence. Acquired at Heritage, 15th April 2014

1853 Sixpence. Acquired at DNW, 4th December 2013

1839 Proof Sixpence. Acquired at London Coins, 3rd March 2013.