jaggy

Just wish to add my own vote of appreciation to Bill as well as to all the others who contributed in a positive way to the discussion.

I think this is a major issue. If people are relying on their grading then they need to be independent and seen to be independent of both buyers and sellers. As the Americans might say ... it is Ethics 101. I have my high grade coins slabbed by CGS mainly for protection and ease of viewing. I do find their grading generally strict but I think that's probably a good thing. I too find their intimate relationship with London Coins of some concern. As stated on their website, London Coins (Holdings) Group Ltd owns 51% of CGS. I don't have a real problem with that or the fact that London Coins auctions CGS coins on behalf of clients. However, I just think that the selling of CGS slabs on the London coins website (and the auctioning of these slabs when they fail to sell) raise questions of on the independency of CGS. The problem here is not whether CGS act ethically or not - and I have no doubt that they are entirely ethical and above board. It is the perception that matters. While there is a link to a major vendor - in this case London Coins - there will always be a suspicion that they grade higher to get better prices and therefore higher commissions or profits. And it only takes a couple of unhappy customers to start that ball rolling.

I think this is a major issue. If people are relying on their grading then they need to be independent and seen to be independent of both buyers and sellers. As the Americans might say ... it is Ethics 101.

I think that grading has two aspects to it. For the buyer it gives assurance that what they are buying is indeed what they think they are buying. For the seller it gives legitimacy to what they are trying to sell. That the coin is, indeed, what they say it is. For this system to be successful, the grading companies need to be independent of buyers and sellers and be recognised as competent. In particular, the grading needs to be accurate and generally accepted as such. As a buyer (not seller) of coins, I don't know enough about the grading companies to be confident in their independence or competence. From comments on here, it would appear that there may be some issues here.

Which only matters if you plan to sell.

Just wanted to add a word of appreciation for what has been - so far - a well argued, civil and most interesting discussion.

ARGENTUMANDCOINS I tell you why (IMO!) but you won't like it: 1, if the dealers send their coins for CGS grading, most (not all but most) of their UNC coins will be returned as EF, some as AUNC but some also as VF55. The same applies to EF, VF coins etc. Just ask Bill who already submitted around 2000 coins, or Divemaster. I have exactly the same experience. As NUMISMATIST said : quote "In fact I would say MOST Large Auctioneers and MOST large dealers, many being BNTA members seriously overgrade these days". I can confirm this from my own experience. Now when I am more familiar with CGS grading it takes me just few seconds on the coin show to see that the offered UNC coin would never ever make even a basic UNC80 grade... So instead of making vast profits they would suffer vast losses. 2, lot (not all) of coin dealers are not interested in a transparent coin market. With slabbed coin you can’t buy the coin as about EF and sell it as almost UNC and make large profit. As one of many examples – just recently I have noticed Victorian YH Halfcrown , sold in recent DNW auction (where described as GEF and sold for around 800,- pounds) on Coin Dealer website - described as choice mint state with price tag of 1500,- pounds. So either the vendor or new buyer was ripped off. DNW is happy with their profit, dealer is very happy with his profit and the buyer??? This is happening all the time and you have to realise that not all coin collectors are as experienced as lot of members on this forum and that it takes years to learn. In the meantime you rely on coin dealers and if you are not experienced enough you buy choice mint state halfcrown for 1500,- …. I wish CGS was around when I started collecting 20 years ago. 3, I do not understand your comment about “auction prices realized by the sister company of the slabbing firmâ€. Are you suggesting that London Coins is bidding against London Coins just to spend 500,- pounds on a coin worth 50, - pounds to show the public how good it is to have coin slabbed??? Yes they offer lot of slabbed coins in their auctions but if I want to sell slabbed coin I would certainly ask London Coins because I am sure that collectors who are interested in slabs are keeping eye on their auctions. Mike, I will keep it simple. I speak from experience as a dealer (many on here have bought from me and will vouch for my grading skills) and as an independent auction house consultant/cataloguer. Leaving aside points 1 and 2 in your reply I will go straight to 3. London Coins set the auction estimates that the sheep will follow for their bidding, just as CGS set "prices" on coins they slab. It is very easy to massage prices when you control the guide book and the auction. That is a fact not an accusation. Why not keep an eye on Lockdales as well because Dan quite often has a lot of Steves' unsolds or old stock in his catalogues. I am a longstanding LC customer with a bidding number in the 200's and I have no axe to grind with the company at all but I do object to people trying to influence opinions with weak one-sided arguments, "transparency in the market" it is quite simple BUY THE COIN NOT THE SLAB!!! One thing is plain in all of this, there is obviously a concerted effort by yourself, Bill and Divemaster to trumpet the virtues of slabbing to the detriment of collecting and the exhaltation of investing. I have to agree with this. I am looking at a couple of coins on a Heritage auction at the moment and it is apparent to me that the coins do not live up to the grade that the slab is trumpeting. Thus I am bidding on the basis of what I think they are worth and not what they would be worth at the grade given on the slab. That said, collectors are far better off today than they were pre-digital photography (which is when I acquired much of my collection). At least now we can generally have a good look at what we are buying and make up our own minds. In the past there was a greater degree of reliance on the integrity of the auctioneer or the dealer. For an experienced eye, a good photo makes slabbing unnecessary at least for collection purposes.

Thanks for that. Think I have identified it: Type 1, with W.W., larger date (11 beads) CP 1858 A.

I came across this penny from 1858. Looks like an 8 over 3 but I am not a 'penny guy' and would appreciate the thoughts of those who are more expert than me.

This is an interesting discussion ...... As I said in a different thread, I recently came back to this hobby after a 15 year hiatus due to work and being transferred to the USA. I have a small collection of sixpences none of which are slabbed. They are kept in Leuchtterm trays in my safe which I find very convenient in that they do not take up a lot of space and I have easy access to enjoy them. I should also add that I buy for my own enjoyment and I have never sold a coin. So, the question is ... to slab or not to slab? And what should I do with slabbed coins that I do buy? Do I break the slab and integrate the coin with the rest of my collection, do I keep the slab and start up a parallel storage system or do I have all my coins slabbed (I have 84 Victoria sixpences alone). My gut feeling is to break the slab. and integrate coins into my trays. But would appreciate any other points of view.

1907 pennies are notorious for weak strikes. It's technically BU but the reverse is so weakly struck that to say "UNC Details" is just a joke! It's UNC with VF details on the reverse (No, it hasn't been cleaned - it's just a weak strike). Then it is a poor photo because it looks cleaned to me. (or my computer screen needs upgrading)

Definitely looks cleaned ... and heavily so. In your view, would that cause a downgrade to VF? Are there any guidelines for how cleaning affects value?

I have been noticing the prices on Heritage. They just sold a 1887 sixpence (withdrawn type) for $56 or $70 if you include the buyers premium. Now it is a nice coin but not exactly uncommon and that is a high price to pay for it. Anyone know why they are able to get those prices? Seems to me that Heritage might be a good place to sell but perhaps not such a good place to buy. Heritage get high prices because they start the bidding at SPINK book price for grade, thius ensuring everything is overpriced that they selll. Its one auction house i don't use for that very reason So, as Jaggy comments, is Heritage a good place to sell but not to buy? If people are prepared to pay more than Spink prices, plus premium, presumably because there is some cache to a Heritage auction?? I will be selling some decent grades soon and will need to decide where ... if Heritage I will want to avoid any import duties etc, any tips very welcome! Import duties are for Incoming Paul, not for outgoing. If you're posting to Heritage then thats outgoing. Heritage as i said usually start their bidding at spink book for grade, not everyone bids their, i don't because of this, there's nothing left in their Coins and you may need to wait several years before it has something in it for you Thanks for the insight re: the Heritage pricing. But they do seem to find people willing to pay that price so the market must be there. Or is it because American collectors want to buy their coins slabbed and graded and Heritage do that. I can see bidding there for that special coin in great condition that one is looking for. But I don't see it for a fairly common coin like the 1887-sh (I already have 4).

Also with regard to Heritage ...... they have a couple of sixpences in their next internet auction .... 1886 YH and 1887 YH. This is a photo of one of them. Does anyone think that tghis one has been cleaned?

I have been noticing the prices on Heritage. They just sold a 1887 sixpence (withdrawn type) for $56 or $70 if you include the buyers premium. Now it is a nice coin but not exactly uncommon and that is a high price to pay for it. Anyone know why they are able to get those prices? Seems to me that Heritage might be a good place to sell but perhaps not such a good place to buy.

I think they ship by whatever you choose in the US assuming it is insured. Overseas is by courier over $250, this seems to have been introduced after I questioned how you could only track a parcel once it had arrived in the UK as offered by the USPS - following the 7 month world tour of a couple of lots which I hadn't received. Thanks. We use a PO Box which often complicates shipping. If I buy in the UK then I will use my mother's address in sunny Glasgow.

Does anyone know if Heritage ships using the US Post Office (USPS) or whether they use someone like UPS or Fedex? It wasn't at all clear on the Heritage site. I currently live in the USA.

I agree. While I don't have that date I would not be interested given the lack of quality.

I have never thought of my coin collection as an investment. As with other pieces of art I have bought, they were acquired because I liked them and I have no intention of selling. That said, I did, however, buy five Swiss Vrenelis in the late 1990s. I sold them when gold went above $1500 at a very nice profit.

I think it is a learning curve for more than a few, myself included

With a DSLR camera in A mode, shutter speed will depend on how much light you have. You can also increase the ISO to get a faster shutter speed and a lens/camera that has Vibration Reduction will help as well.

I suspect your camera is too close to the coin which is why the photo is a bit out of focus. I take my photos from further away but then crop them in Photoshop Elements. That allows me to get the coin in focus but also close enough to see the detail. You don't need to buy a product like photoshop to crop photos. There are plenty of standard packages that allow you to do it (e.g. Iphoto).

Sorry about the second pic being so big. Still trying to work out this photo malarkey.

Agree on the cleaning. On further thought, that probably brings the value down and makes it overpriced. I bought mine (Elizabeth I - Milled coinage; large bust, cross fourchèe, small rose, mm.star) at auction (many years ago) and it was graded at VF+then. While it is always hard to tell from a photo, I thought mine was just a bit better than the ebay one hence why I felt that one might be a VF. Maybe mine is conservatively graded. What do others think? Should it be graded under hammered standards, or early milled, or somewhere in between?! Could we see a pic of your Jaggy? This is my coin

Agree on the cleaning. On further thought, that probably brings the value down and makes it overpriced. I bought mine (Elizabeth I - Milled coinage; large bust, cross fourchèe, small rose, mm.star) at auction (many years ago) and it was graded at VF+then. While it is always hard to tell from a photo, I thought mine was just a bit better than the ebay one hence why I felt that one might be a VF. Maybe mine is conservatively graded.