Bill Pugsley

But how many Churchill Crowns, E2 & G6 farthings, to name but a few, could be added to the peanuts list? With Bill's couple of thousand coins, and the E2 pre and post decimal coinage, plus my 10 slabs and VS's mint-flavoured NEF '35 Crown...what was that population report again? Anyway, where's MY '67 penny, then? CGS better grade some more 1967 pennies then if they are going to give them away to all registered collectors with CGS graded coins on the web site (of which there are currently 183). I have heard that over 500 people have registered to the site who have not logged or admitted to having CGS graded coins. Interestingly only 10,632 of the CGS coins have been registered as being 'owned' by the 183 collectors. I wonder where the other 15,000 are? The only time I have known CGS 'give' coins away in slabs was at a Dublin Coin fair when they had encapsulated (but not graded nor added to the 'population' report) Irish Commemorative two euro coins in conjunction with the organisers. These were handed out when people bought tickets to attend the event. I have tried to answer this point elsewhere in this forum but you do make a good point about 'how much dross (my word, peanuts your word)' is included in the 25,000 coins graded. I have no interest in decimal UK coins nor do I collect anything before 1816 - yet these appear on the CGS site. Should I reject the service because it contains stuff I am not interested in? I have submitted everything from 'common or garden' through to extremely rare coins to CGS because I want my collection to be housed in CGS slabs and have been independently graded by them. So was it worth my submitting my Elizabeth II sixpences - certainly not in terms of financial reward. However, many were not UNC (although I thought they were) so I have been able to replace them with CGS UNC coins from private purchases. Unless a coin is scarce or rare I would prefer an UNC version of it - and many I bought as 'raw' and described as uncirculated from UK dealers and auction houses have been graded by CGS as EF, AU and in some cases as VF (with a number being rejected by CGS because of faults or cleaning). Many collectors are content with 'raw' coins. I and some other collectors are not. Most collectors like to acquire the best they can of a specific coin, whatever their interest. To ensure I know what my coins grade at I use CGS and I buy CGS graded coins that allow me to upgrade lesser graded ones. When I paid a ridiculous amount for a CGS UNC82 Churchill Crown it was to replace an UNC80 that I already had. I am more than happy with that purchase - in the same way I would be delighted to be offered a 1967 penny graded by CGS at UNC90 or higher to replace the UNC80 grade I have. However you wish to hold your collection - I wish you well. What I hope I have done is bring some balance to the CGS discussion.

I think this is a major issue. If people are relying on their grading then they need to be independent and seen to be independent of both buyers and sellers. As the Americans might say ... it is Ethics 101. I have my high grade coins slabbed by CGS mainly for protection and ease of viewing. I do find their grading generally strict but I think that's probably a good thing. I too find their intimate relationship with London Coins of some concern. As stated on their website, London Coins (Holdings) Group Ltd owns 51% of CGS. I don't have a real problem with that or the fact that London Coins auctions CGS coins on behalf of clients. However, I just think that the selling of CGS slabs on the London coins website (and the auctioning of these slabs when they fail to sell) raise questions of on the independency of CGS. The problem here is not whether CGS act ethically or not - and I have no doubt that they are entirely ethical and above board. It is the perception that matters. While there is a link to a major vendor - in this case London Coins - there will always be a suspicion that they grade higher to get better prices and therefore higher commissions or profits. And it only takes a couple of unhappy customers to start that ball rolling. I have an open mind at the moment, and waiting on my first consignment to be graded and slabbed (hopefully) and returned, a trial run if you will. One of the questions in my 'open mind' at the moment is how on earth there are so many coins worth less than, say £25, that have been slabbed by CGS when it costs a minimum of £11.99 plus 2-way postage (or petrol!) for each coin? Lots of optimists or some preferential discounts?? Any thoughts? I am not saying £11.99 isn't good value, but how can it be economically viable for coins worth less than even £40? Even Bill says he pays the going rate .. I spoke with Andrew of AJW Coins and he says he pays the going rate too, but was offered "25 for the price of 20" at some point. It seems that something I try and convey to companies that I advise is being highlighted here. One unhappy customer will lose you ten new customers and ten happy customers may bring you one new customers. My first submission to CGS was 39 coins (all in 'other' slabs) and even though I was disappointed with the result I have submitted a further 2,100 coins for grading by them. To keep submitting coins it is fair to surmise 'I am a happy customer'. Can someone be described as a customer who has not submitted coins (and this is not a 'dig' - poor customer service can disenchant anyone from becoming a customer)? Elsewhere there are comments about 62 1967 pennies having been graded. What was not noted is a further 8 have been rejected. I had a quick look at the website and at least seven collectors have 1967 pennies registered in their collection. What was interesting to me is the highest grade attributed to any of these pennies is UNC88. I suspect that 1967 pennies were sent to CGS in the hope that they would grade higher. (I submitted a 1968 Irish Penny to CGS after going through a hundred or more because it was as near FDC as I could find - it graded at UNC90 but is still only worth £18.00 - but I am happy with that result because if it remains the finest known someone somewhere will offer me a premium for it should I decide to sell.) I have no idea if CGS 'graded a number of coins' to give away. They have graded (and accepted) 2,227 UK pennies of all kinds and rejected a further 342 (as at this morning). Some of the pennies graded have sold for in excess of £20,000 (yet they were graded at something like G8). So does 70 1967 pennies constitute a skewing of numbers? They have graded 60 1930 pennies and rejected 9. Graded 64 1902 pennies (there are four types) and rejected 7. Have a look at the CGS site - even if you have no interest in slabbing yourself, the information made available is actually fascinating and very comprehensive (it costs nothing at the moment to register).

Hello Vicky, I missed this post when reviewing yesterday - my apologies. Could you tell me the reference number on the slab for the coin please? I recently heard of a situation where a person removed a coin from a CGS capsule and contacted them because the coin had been incorrectly attributed to a variety. They arranged to send the coin and broken slab back to CGS who refunded postage, corrected the attribution (it was a variety dealing with something specific to the edge of the coin) and made a contribution to the time spent by the person returning the coin. Yet, they could have justifiably refused to do anything because the coin had been removed from the slab. If anyone who has a CGS graded coin in CGS capsule has a problem with the coin their guarantee kicks in. I believe the main US Graders offer a similar guarantee. Contact them first about the problem and arrange to send the coin to them (so they can expect it). Send by insured signed for postage with a note explaining your concerns. In a best case they will 100% agree with you and refund either the value or where you paid more (and can show you did) than the valuation, they will refund you that cost. In a median case they will work with you to arrive at an agreement which may include replacing the coin with a comparable one to that you thought you had. In a worst case you come to a compromise and will probably be unhappy (which is not in any coin graders interest). What many people do not realise is that CGS is actually owned by a number of companies and individuals, and yes one of the shareholders is London Coins. When the service was conceived for the UK it was launched with the opportunity for all main UK coin auction houses and dealers to invest in the service. It does share the same Managing Director (Steve Lockett) of London Coins and it shares office space with London Coins. In an ideal world it would be completely independent of any one dealer (which was attempted by the shared ownership). Had it achieved the volume of coins per week (I believe at least 1,000) it has set out to process it could well now be in its own premises with its own full time staff. Because it is not doing anywhere near that volume (some times none a week) the business would not survive without the support of London Coins. I accept the situation of the London Coins connection and I sincerely hope that the business grows while maintaining its excellent product delivery and in time may physically remove itself from the direct London Coins reliance and connection. Because resources are sometimes shared by CGS with London Coins delays can be experienced in getting coins through their process or in communications because the needs of London Coins (preparing for Auctions or dealing with post auction deliveries) sometimes take priority. I look forward to the time CGS does have its own premises and staff.

I used to run businesses around the world (USA, Australia, Germany, UK and Singapore). I took care and the time to assess all markets that I moved into and I do the same for my local suppliers. I retired seven years ago but now run other peoples businesses (UK and Ireland). I still make mistakes (although hopefully not the same ones). I have not met any one who is infallible - we all make mistakes - and I have made too many in buying coins that were over graded by the people I bought them from. I have noted that I always try to speak to managers (not gatekeepers nor receptionists). I am sure if you were to call CGS and ask to speak to a Manager they would take your call or call you back. I disagree with you about perception is truth. I have too many instances where I considered I was making the 'right decision' to discover I had not (especially when recruiting Sales Directors). First Class products rarely attract a discount but by all means pose the question to CGS. As to delivery to their offices - make an appointment with a manager. If you feel that it is too late for CGS go off to PCGS, NGC, ANA or one of the other North American Graders. THey will probably give a discount on a volume deal but their starting prices are much higher than CGS's. There are many collectors out there who would be glad to get good coins in North American slabs but there are a discerning number of collectors who, like me, do not trust the North American grading services in the same way I trust the CGS service. As to the second chance to make a good impression, I have supplied Japanese companies in Europe and found them to be exemplary customers. Rather than attack a supplier for failing (as many companies do) their first reaction is to work with the supplier to 'make things better'. An interesting approach compared to most businesses in Europe. The person who answered the phone at CGS has tarnished your opinion of their business. I suggest you give them a second chance and take advantage of their excellent product. As for myself, I still have another 1,000 plus coins I plan to submit to their service at their commercial rates over the coming year or so. My biggest fear is that they will increase their charges from what I consider to be very reasonable rates at the moment. All the best

CGS refuse to compromise their grading services. I repeatedly have stated that I believe a coin graded by CGS today will achieve the same or similar grade in five years time. The only thing they have changed since their launch is changing the previous EF75 and EF78 to AU75 and AU78. I used to have a reasonably high regard for PCGS but they suddenly introduced 'plus' grades that were better than the original grades and a number of collectors se-submitted their coins for grading again. I have heard stories of dealers telling North American grading houses that they will only submit coins that will be designated as MS70 or PF70 and being told to submit them. Sitting on my desk is a nice copper Victoria 1854 half penny in a PCGS slab designated MS63BN (I bought by mistake) that I can tell has been cleaned (even in the slab). Getting back to CGS. They will continue to batch submissions and process coins when the time is scheduled because without proper management of the operation they would not be able to continue running the business. I believe I have noted that if they were getting a 1,000 coins a week they could go through a step change of the operation and employ more staff solely focused on CGS needs. The observations made on forums such as this are being listened to and 'things continue to improve'. I would hate to see them go the way of the Australian Grading Company (out of business) as for the moment they are, for me, the most professional service out there for grading UK and non-North American coins. I am just back from an auction where CGS graded coins were being offered for UK and elsewhere. Some sold below CGS suggested values (and I bought some of those) and some exceeded CGS suggested values (I bought none of those). Mind you, I will bid on CGS coins at auctions that I do not attend and thus cannot examine the coins - because I trust CGS grading. All the coins I bought that are CGS graded do not disappoint me.

I think that to a certain extent that is just a marketing ploy pushed by the grading companies to make the punters believe that the cost of slabbing can be immediately offset from the perceived gain. From my experience of Graded Coins (I am told there are over 20 'grading companies' in the USA in addition to PCGS and NGC) there is undoubtedly hype and pressure to get coins graded. One could almost suggest that in North America that collectors are buying graded coins by US firms because of peer pressure. If you want to make top dollar for a coin in North America - get it graded. I have seen British Coins for sale in NGC and PCGS capsules in the USA at prices that far exceed what Spink (and indeed most UK Catalogues) would suggest - especially scarcer/rarer items (I am fortunate to visit the USA often on business). I believe that my collection will realise a better price having been graded by CGS. Many will not agree and that is fine by me - fifteen years ago grading of coins in North America was seldom done. Now it is the norm. Perhaps if I survive another twenty years the UK and rest of Europe may follow suit or I may just be a lonely voice in the crowd of people preferring ungraded coins. Bill you mentioned that there was some sort of meeting this weekend with the CGS boys and girls. So how did it go and what was their answers to the questions raised on here? The meeting went well (not as many as I would have like) but a variety of presentations including a very informative one by Steve Lockett on how CGS arrive at the values they place on graded coins. The notes of presentations and discussions will appear on the CGS Forum website within two weeks. I did raise the matter of the 'car park' exchange and the 'lousy customer service'. There was much scratching of head over the first point in that exchanges of coins and discussions have taken place in car parks as a result of time pressures. I was assured that people deliver to their offices on almost a daily basis (apart from couriers and post office). Even with appointments promises on timings sometimes get compromised and time is snatched when about to go elsewhere or returning from somewhere. If there is a significant piece of business to conduct (for example when I may deliver 50 or more coins for grading) they prefer an appointment so that they can check my submission and give me a receipt before I leave. Going back to the head scratching, no specific instance stood out but anyone who is unhappy with such an arrangement can ask to go to their offices or be invited to return when time pressures are not as great. The comment on poor customer service was taken on board and training will be undertaken to ensure such a conversation should not happen again. An interesting observation was made to me that I have some sympathy for - normally if you get poor customer service it would be right to take it up with a Manager. When I telephone a well known mobile telephone operation (which I have done from time to time) I just ask to speak to a manager at the outset so that matters can be properly resolved. CGS does accept coins being delivered to its offices (and if there are a lot of them it is as well to book an appointment). For myself I am content with their pricing as I think the results of their service are first class (and are cheaper than the main north American companies). Unfortunately I did raise the question of how much does it cost to actually go through the CGS process and then encapsulate a coin and I suspect the margins out of £11.99 are very minimal indeed. This may lead to an upward review of prices during the course of this year.

I think that to a certain extent that is just a marketing ploy pushed by the grading companies to make the punters believe that the cost of slabbing can be immediately offset from the perceived gain. I concur that a lot of grading of coins is a marketing ploy. However, there is an aspect of it that I have found does add value - and that is for scarcer/rarer coins (whatever their grade). I decided to get all my collection coins graded in the mistaken belief that people who had sold them to me had been honest in their assessment of grade. So when you get a 1966 shilling graded by CGS as AU75 and a suggested value of £10.00 you can immediately feel gutted; after all it costs £11.99 to grade plus what it may have cost (assuming I did not get it in change) from a dealer who sold it as BU. The upside is that my coins will (when all are graded) be encapsulated and I will have a consistent way to present them. In North America 'finest known' coins (albeit at a point in time) do have premiums associated with them. Now a finest known when there is only one does not necessarily detract from the coin being recorded as such. Some of my own CGS graded finest known are good, fine and very fine. I am content with the grade allocated by CGS and, unlike American Companies, they have many more varieties per year/type for British Coins. As to the comment it is the same coin whether slabbed or raw - at an instance in time I would agree. The issue is deciding what the grade is to apply to the coin (and in some cases exactly what variety it is). Dealers reasonably say that 'their years of experience' provide them the tools to grade a coin and that Grading companies have no place. I thought I could grade coins after 40 years of collecting but I may as well be in kindergarten. CGS does not have a committee looking at each coin but uses a rigid process for grading that includes detailed reference sets and a computer program to collate observations about the coin. Each coin is pre-assessed to determine what the coin is and is then photographed and allocated a unique number. The pre-assessment may include it being designated as a new variety (as has happened with a number of coins I have submitted to CGS) and then the first grader goes through the grading determination (using the tools noted above). When the first grader has finished the coin is then examined by a second grader who does not know what the first grader came up with (in the computer program) and when the second is finished the results are collated. Generally the graders arrive at the same or similar rating (say AU78 and UNC80). If the grading is only a few points different the lower value is accepted as being the grade of the coin (everyone says CGS is tough on grading!). If it is more than a few points different then a third grader goes through the process or the coin is discussed with the third grader and a consensus is reached on what the grade should be. Having seen a grader go through this process and being shown how the assessment is undertaken I have confidence that the CGS method is probably more consistent than any subjective observations made by individuals. Most farthing collectors will tell you they could tell an 1860 mule from a normal farthing. I did not know there are two different Mules for this year until I checked with the CGS site. Also, I submitted two half pennies to CGS for the same year. One I bought off a dealer who has been trading for forty five years who described the coin with a Freeman Designation and Dies 15 + O. The other I had bought as an unreferenced by Freeman for the same year as an unrecorded Dies 15 + O*. I actually challenged CGS when both coins were designated as the unrecorded coin and was assured that both were 'new types' and not seen by them before. So a dealer with 45 years experience had not detected the difference but CGS pre-assessment did and I was 'quids in' as a result. I have to also report the flip side of having what I thought was a scarce variety penny graded by CGS (in fair condition) to get it back with a grade of G8 (good) and worth £1.00 (bearing in mind it cost £11.99 to get graded) because it was the common variety of the year, not the rarer die pair I thought it was. To summarise, if you are unsure of grading or have no wish to potentially be seriously upset by the grading of your coins that CGS may come up with - do not get your coins graded by CGS. Be happy with what you have! However, if you would like someone to professionally assess your coins and identify the varieties you have, especially if you think you have high grade scarce or rare coins, then submit a few to CGS and either be pleasantly surprised or possibly depressed by the results.

I think that to a certain extent that is just a marketing ploy pushed by the grading companies to make the punters believe that the cost of slabbing can be immediately offset from the perceived gain. From my experience of Graded Coins (I am told there are over 20 'grading companies' in the USA in addition to PCGS and NGC) there is undoubtedly hype and pressure to get coins graded. One could almost suggest that in North America that collectors are buying graded coins by US firms because of peer pressure. If you want to make top dollar for a coin in North America - get it graded. I have seen British Coins for sale in NGC and PCGS capsules in the USA at prices that far exceed what Spink (and indeed most UK Catalogues) would suggest - especially scarcer/rarer items (I am fortunate to visit the USA often on business). I believe that my collection will realise a better price having been graded by CGS. Many will not agree and that is fine by me - fifteen years ago grading of coins in North America was seldom done. Now it is the norm. Perhaps if I survive another twenty years the UK and rest of Europe may follow suit or I may just be a lonely voice in the crowd of people preferring ungraded coins.

Bill, I have a book called "cleaning and preservation of coins and medals" by Sandford J Durst, ISBN 0-915262-03-7 It is an achedemic work and probably written with museum conservators in mind. If you cannot find a copy for sale I am more than happy to loan you my copy if it would help. John. I've got 'Cleaning of Coins and Medals' by G Welter (1970) SNB8244-0193-X. It might be useful once I get my Chemistry Masters! It is good though, if you want to borrow that one too (it would post as a large-letter, so not expensive)! Thank you both for the offer of loaning me the books. I was able to find both on them on Amazon (plus one other) and I have duly ordered them all. The article should be written this year if my work does not get in the way. Thanks again.

Ironically, this is one example where the TPG input is likely to have little weight. People who are looking and willing to spend serious amounts for letter by lighthouse halfpennies are rarely, if ever, not up to speed on the variety. The two halfpennies (actually I had one with an A by lighthouse - even rarer) so let us say three coins are in parlous condition. One had been immersed in water so long that it was literally flaking away - but not enough to stop seeing the letter and other detail. They are now in rigid holders and I believe will not deteriorate further. I bought an NGC graded 1962 letter C halfpenny that was graded as MS64RB (Unc at least one would think). CGS did not even remove it from the capsule but called me (which is when I made my first journey to their offices) to tell me they would reject it. When I met with them the coin was represented to grading (it looked lovely - even in a capsule!) and I was shown the coin through the capsule under a ten times magnifier to see the verdigris that someone had tried to remove with presumably a pin, then I was shown where the coin had been recoloured (I did not know you could do that to make a dull coin look UNC). On that point if anyone knows what can be used to 'return a bronze coin' to an UNC appearance I would appreciate the information as I am researching an article on 'coin preservation'.

ARGENTUMANDCOINS I tell you why (IMO!) but you won't like it: 1, if the dealers send their coins for CGS grading, most (not all but most) of their UNC coins will be returned as EF, some as AUNC but some also as VF55. The same applies to EF, VF coins etc. Just ask Bill who already submitted around 2000 coins, or Divemaster. I have exactly the same experience. As NUMISMATIST said : quote "In fact I would say MOST Large Auctioneers and MOST large dealers, many being BNTA members seriously overgrade these days". I can confirm this from my own experience. Now when I am more familiar with CGS grading it takes me just few seconds on the coin show to see that the offered UNC coin would never ever make even a basic UNC80 grade... So instead of making vast profits they would suffer vast losses. 2, lot (not all) of coin dealers are not interested in a transparent coin market. With slabbed coin you can’t buy the coin as about EF and sell it as almost UNC and make large profit. As one of many examples – just recently I have noticed Victorian YH Halfcrown , sold in recent DNW auction (where described as GEF and sold for around 800,- pounds) on Coin Dealer website - described as choice mint state with price tag of 1500,- pounds. So either the vendor or new buyer was ripped off. DNW is happy with their profit, dealer is very happy with his profit and the buyer??? This is happening all the time and you have to realise that not all coin collectors are as experienced as lot of members on this forum and that it takes years to learn. In the meantime you rely on coin dealers and if you are not experienced enough you buy choice mint state halfcrown for 1500,- …. I wish CGS was around when I started collecting 20 years ago. 3, I do not understand your comment about “auction prices realized by the sister company of the slabbing firmâ€. Are you suggesting that London Coins is bidding against London Coins just to spend 500,- pounds on a coin worth 50, - pounds to show the public how good it is to have coin slabbed??? Yes they offer lot of slabbed coins in their auctions but if I want to sell slabbed coin I would certainly ask London Coins because I am sure that collectors who are interested in slabs are keeping eye on their auctions. I think your points 1. and 2. have a lot of merit Mike. There have always been apples in the dealer barrel that range from the rotten to the "over-enthusiastic", but a lot too - as you say - who are straight. But your point 3 could use some research on your part if you don't mind me saying. A company that slabs very ordinary coins and then (possibly) gets an employee to put them up on eBay with a lot of hype and vastly inflated prices (or bidding), to show the effect of slabbing on prices... well, I don't wish to be libellous, but it goes on. Thank you for your comments. You may be right and I am not going to advocate something I know very little about. Saying that I am not going to do any research in that respect - I rather invest my time in my hobby. I got involved in the discussion just because I have noticed that some of the members (which are usually strongly against slabbing) have very poor knowledge about the subject and I also felt that some of the comments towards CGS are unfair (when compared with my personal experience). Otherwise I am primarily interested in coin collecting - not slabbing! Around X-mas I have posted picture of George IV Halfcrown (my X-mas present, slab partially visible) and first reply was "Nice coin, shame it is in plastic coffin". I don't get it, I would never ever comment post from other member "Nice coin, shame it is not in a nice slab". Hope you know what I mean. I think your approach is entirely sensible, Mike, we are all first and foremost collectors and enthusiasts of all things coin! Speaking only for myself, I like both slabbed and raw, it really depends on my reason for buying it, or slabbing it. I have broke out around a dozen coins altogether, the 1951 6d I recently purchased from Ms Lockett is already out the slab, and waiting in a 2x2 alongside my other G6 coins for an eventual upgrade! It seems to me that this subject ultimately requires tolerance and sensitivity of preferences. It has bounced back and forth for many months, with very little change in anyone's opinion, leading me to believe nothing can be said to convert an intelligent individual one way or the other? Great debate, yet again, but the usual stale mate I think? Wow! Where do I start? Perhaps with me. I am a collector of coins! But like many collectors I have an eye on what my collection is worth (I want one of every variety of all denominations and years that I collect but unless I win the 'big' Euro million Lottery I have next to no chance of achieving that goal). I also want to have a collection where each coin will be labelled from the 'Bill Pugsley Collection' and hopefully have the provenance passed down through future collectors. I pay the commercial price to get my coins CGS graded (because I think it is great value) which includes having paid £49.99 each for some of my coins. I do not get any graded free and I wait the same periods as all other people to get my coins back (and I always want them back in days not weeks or months). Slowly but surely some collectors/investors have begun to appreciate the consistent quality of CGS graded coins and I have found less resistance to buying CGS coins than a few years ago. My benefit of promoting or supporting CGS is the more converts to their service the more likely my CGS collection is going to improve in value. Yes, I do meet with CGS managers from time to time (normally when I am dropping off more coins for grading) and we may discuss improvements to the CGS web site or aspects of coin collecting. I am certainly not 'paid' for anything I may do and I always pay for my submissions. My professional background is managing and advising businesses, with a leaning to sales and marketing. I used my professional experience to create, with some logistical only assistance from CGS, the CGS Forum. I personally paid for the domain and I host it on one of my own servers. It has been an education trying to build a website and run a forum (and I am getting better at it). I also proposed that we have meetings of the CGS Forum to coincide with the London Coin Auctions. We are holding the fourth meeting this coming weekend. When I chaired the first meeting of the CGS Forum we got around to discussing collection values and I explained that I believed that if I had to realise some cash quickly that I would reasonably expect to get 50% of the CGS valuation of the coins I had graded by CGS. One member of the audience said he would give me 60% and he was immediately outbid by someone else offering 70%. Maybe it was all in light hearted good humour. But then again they may have been serious. Yes my collection is varied but it has some really lovely pieces, each in a CGS capsule. I simply support CGS because I have the time and the inclination (and I want to improve the value of my collection!). As an aside, where I achieve 'hall of fame status' for aspects of my CGS graded collection CGS will re-encapsulate the coins that have achieved that status with a label stating 'The Bill Pugsley Collection'. So one of my goals is attainable. OK - that out of the way let me try and address why only 25,000 coins graded? When CGS was first launched they had in place the team to be able to grade thousands of coins a week. After an initial flurry this reduced to a trickle and some of the staff had to be laid off. Rather than closing the business it was continued with the same original goals but at a significantly reduced capacity. It has done limited marketing and has largely relied upon word of mouth recommendations. It is gaining traction but unless it starts to receive significant numbers of coins each and every week it will continue to manage the business it does. From my understanding if London Coins had not supported it it would not be here today (the Australian Coin Grading Service stopped grading coins about two years after it was launched for similar problems). I was very circumspect in the article I first had published (maybe it was the second) that dealt with collecting CGS graded coins about grading assessments by dealers. I think I remarked that at least one Auction House (now more than one - and I was referring to DNW then) rarely suggest a coin is UNC but go for EF or better as a description. I keep careful records of what coins I buy, who from, price paid, date and original suggested grade. I can now add this data to my collection on the CGS website and download a copy of the CGS data with mine for my own local use. Some dealers and auction houses have been consistently good but others have seriously over graded. I am aware that some dealer do use the CGS service for really good quality coins because they know that an UNC85 or higher grade from CGS will actually boost the sales price. The Bellamey collection of half crowns recently sold by DNW was from an Irish based collector who was delighted with the value he got from the sale (I have known the collector for a number of years). The fact that someone who bought the coins and is now offering them at a higher grade and price is all frequently quite common. There are one or two eBay sellers who have nothing to do with CGS or London Coins listing CGS Graded coins and have buy-now prices higher than those proposed by CGS. Anyone can register to the CGS site and check values for grades against coin types. A number of CGS coin sellers on eBay always provide the UIN (the Unique Identification Number) allocated by CGS - so it is easy to check the value of the site. I have bid more than the CGS proposed value on a number of coins sold at coin auctions and on eBay, sometimes winning and sometimes not. I make my own assessment of value and if I believe the CGS value is low I will pay more. I do know the person referred to who sells from his personal collection. He is not an employee of London Coins. At one time I was his most prolific buyer because the prices in his earlier auctions were low. I have bought less and less recently as I seem to get out bid by people prepared to pay more than I am for a specific CGS coin. I was the person who paid £32 for a Currency Churchill Crown (mad you may say) because it was graded as UNC82. How many truly UNC Churchill Crowns have you come across (I have handled at least 100 in the last forty years and none were as good as the one I bought). At one time London Coin Auctions were the only company to offer CGS graded coins. I have since seen them in DNW, Lockdales and I am sure many other auction houses will follow in time. I once thought I knew how to grade coins. I am now far from being expert but I am more critical than I have ever been in the past, purely because of my experience of CGS grading. When CGS reject what you think (and was told by the seller) is a lustrous UNC 1869 bronze penny because of corrosion and you take up a magnifying glass and see it for yourself, you conclude that you wish you had known about CGS years before you started using their service. I forgot to mention something on Coin News. They welcome well presented articles from any and all collectors, dealers etc that contain news or information about our hobby. I have had four articles published so far - two dealing with CGS and two dealing with unrelated topics. They would like articles that will be interesting to their readers and actually delayed one of mine because it mentions CGS and they did not want to be seen to be favouring one organisation. So get writing if you do not favour CGS or slabbing generally - I am sure that they would be happy to publish alternative views on the matter!

ARGENTUMANDCOINS I tell you why (IMO!) but you won't like it: 1, if the dealers send their coins for CGS grading, most (not all but most) of their UNC coins will be returned as EF, some as AUNC but some also as VF55. The same applies to EF, VF coins etc. Just ask Bill who already submitted around 2000 coins, or Divemaster. I have exactly the same experience. As NUMISMATIST said : quote "In fact I would say MOST Large Auctioneers and MOST large dealers, many being BNTA members seriously overgrade these days". I can confirm this from my own experience. Now when I am more familiar with CGS grading it takes me just few seconds on the coin show to see that the offered UNC coin would never ever make even a basic UNC80 grade... So instead of making vast profits they would suffer vast losses. 2, lot (not all) of coin dealers are not interested in a transparent coin market. With slabbed coin you can’t buy the coin as about EF and sell it as almost UNC and make large profit. As one of many examples – just recently I have noticed Victorian YH Halfcrown , sold in recent DNW auction (where described as GEF and sold for around 800,- pounds) on Coin Dealer website - described as choice mint state with price tag of 1500,- pounds. So either the vendor or new buyer was ripped off. DNW is happy with their profit, dealer is very happy with his profit and the buyer??? This is happening all the time and you have to realise that not all coin collectors are as experienced as lot of members on this forum and that it takes years to learn. In the meantime you rely on coin dealers and if you are not experienced enough you buy choice mint state halfcrown for 1500,- …. I wish CGS was around when I started collecting 20 years ago. 3, I do not understand your comment about “auction prices realized by the sister company of the slabbing firmâ€. Are you suggesting that London Coins is bidding against London Coins just to spend 500,- pounds on a coin worth 50, - pounds to show the public how good it is to have coin slabbed??? Yes they offer lot of slabbed coins in their auctions but if I want to sell slabbed coin I would certainly ask London Coins because I am sure that collectors who are interested in slabs are keeping eye on their auctions. I think your points 1. and 2. have a lot of merit Mike. There have always been apples in the dealer barrel that range from the rotten to the "over-enthusiastic", but a lot too - as you say - who are straight. But your point 3 could use some research on your part if you don't mind me saying. A company that slabs very ordinary coins and then (possibly) gets an employee to put them up on eBay with a lot of hype and vastly inflated prices (or bidding), to show the effect of slabbing on prices... well, I don't wish to be libellous, but it goes on. Thank you for your comments. You may be right and I am not going to advocate something I know very little about. Saying that I am not going to do any research in that respect - I rather invest my time in my hobby. I got involved in the discussion just because I have noticed that some of the members (which are usually strongly against slabbing) have very poor knowledge about the subject and I also felt that some of the comments towards CGS are unfair (when compared with my personal experience). Otherwise I am primarily interested in coin collecting - not slabbing! Around X-mas I have posted picture of George IV Halfcrown (my X-mas present, slab partially visible) and first reply was "Nice coin, shame it is in plastic coffin". I don't get it, I would never ever comment post from other member "Nice coin, shame it is not in a nice slab". Hope you know what I mean. I think your approach is entirely sensible, Mike, we are all first and foremost collectors and enthusiasts of all things coin! Speaking only for myself, I like both slabbed and raw, it really depends on my reason for buying it, or slabbing it. I have broke out around a dozen coins altogether, the 1951 6d I recently purchased from Ms Lockett is already out the slab, and waiting in a 2x2 alongside my other G6 coins for an eventual upgrade! It seems to me that this subject ultimately requires tolerance and sensitivity of preferences. It has bounced back and forth for many months, with very little change in anyone's opinion, leading me to believe nothing can be said to convert an intelligent individual one way or the other? Great debate, yet again, but the usual stale mate I think? Wow! Where do I start? Perhaps with me. I am a collector of coins! But like many collectors I have an eye on what my collection is worth (I want one of every variety of all denominations and years that I collect but unless I win the 'big' Euro million Lottery I have next to no chance of achieving that goal). I also want to have a collection where each coin will be labelled from the 'Bill Pugsley Collection' and hopefully have the provenance passed down through future collectors. I pay the commercial price to get my coins CGS graded (because I think it is great value) which includes having paid £49.99 each for some of my coins. I do not get any graded free and I wait the same periods as all other people to get my coins back (and I always want them back in days not weeks or months). Slowly but surely some collectors/investors have begun to appreciate the consistent quality of CGS graded coins and I have found less resistance to buying CGS coins than a few years ago. My benefit of promoting or supporting CGS is the more converts to their service the more likely my CGS collection is going to improve in value. Yes, I do meet with CGS managers from time to time (normally when I am dropping off more coins for grading) and we may discuss improvements to the CGS web site or aspects of coin collecting. I am certainly not 'paid' for anything I may do and I always pay for my submissions. My professional background is managing and advising businesses, with a leaning to sales and marketing. I used my professional experience to create, with some logistical only assistance from CGS, the CGS Forum. I personally paid for the domain and I host it on one of my own servers. It has been an education trying to build a website and run a forum (and I am getting better at it). I also proposed that we have meetings of the CGS Forum to coincide with the London Coin Auctions. We are holding the fourth meeting this coming weekend. When I chaired the first meeting of the CGS Forum we got around to discussing collection values and I explained that I believed that if I had to realise some cash quickly that I would reasonably expect to get 50% of the CGS valuation of the coins I had graded by CGS. One member of the audience said he would give me 60% and he was immediately outbid by someone else offering 70%. Maybe it was all in light hearted good humour. But then again they may have been serious. Yes my collection is varied but it has some really lovely pieces, each in a CGS capsule. I simply support CGS because I have the time and the inclination (and I want to improve the value of my collection!). As an aside, where I achieve 'hall of fame status' for aspects of my CGS graded collection CGS will re-encapsulate the coins that have achieved that status with a label stating 'The Bill Pugsley Collection'. So one of my goals is attainable. OK - that out of the way let me try and address why only 25,000 coins graded? When CGS was first launched they had in place the team to be able to grade thousands of coins a week. After an initial flurry this reduced to a trickle and some of the staff had to be laid off. Rather than closing the business it was continued with the same original goals but at a significantly reduced capacity. It has done limited marketing and has largely relied upon word of mouth recommendations. It is gaining traction but unless it starts to receive significant numbers of coins each and every week it will continue to manage the business it does. From my understanding if London Coins had not supported it it would not be here today (the Australian Coin Grading Service stopped grading coins about two years after it was launched for similar problems). I was very circumspect in the article I first had published (maybe it was the second) that dealt with collecting CGS graded coins about grading assessments by dealers. I think I remarked that at least one Auction House (now more than one - and I was referring to DNW then) rarely suggest a coin is UNC but go for EF or better as a description. I keep careful records of what coins I buy, who from, price paid, date and original suggested grade. I can now add this data to my collection on the CGS website and download a copy of the CGS data with mine for my own local use. Some dealers and auction houses have been consistently good but others have seriously over graded. I am aware that some dealer do use the CGS service for really good quality coins because they know that an UNC85 or higher grade from CGS will actually boost the sales price. The Bellamey collection of half crowns recently sold by DNW was from an Irish based collector who was delighted with the value he got from the sale (I have known the collector for a number of years). The fact that someone who bought the coins and is now offering them at a higher grade and price is all frequently quite common. There are one or two eBay sellers who have nothing to do with CGS or London Coins listing CGS Graded coins and have buy-now prices higher than those proposed by CGS. Anyone can register to the CGS site and check values for grades against coin types. A number of CGS coin sellers on eBay always provide the UIN (the Unique Identification Number) allocated by CGS - so it is easy to check the value of the site. I have bid more than the CGS proposed value on a number of coins sold at coin auctions and on eBay, sometimes winning and sometimes not. I make my own assessment of value and if I believe the CGS value is low I will pay more. I do know the person referred to who sells from his personal collection. He is not an employee of London Coins. At one time I was his most prolific buyer because the prices in his earlier auctions were low. I have bought less and less recently as I seem to get out bid by people prepared to pay more than I am for a specific CGS coin. I was the person who paid £32 for a Currency Churchill Crown (mad you may say) because it was graded as UNC82. How many truly UNC Churchill Crowns have you come across (I have handled at least 100 in the last forty years and none were as good as the one I bought). At one time London Coin Auctions were the only company to offer CGS graded coins. I have since seen them in DNW, Lockdales and I am sure many other auction houses will follow in time. I once thought I knew how to grade coins. I am now far from being expert but I am more critical than I have ever been in the past, purely because of my experience of CGS grading. When CGS reject what you think (and was told by the seller) is a lustrous UNC 1869 bronze penny because of corrosion and you take up a magnifying glass and see it for yourself, you conclude that you wish you had known about CGS years before you started using their service.

Are you sure about the CGS policy 'or if it suffers in the slab'? That seems like commercial suicide to me because, as you already mentioned, other entombed coins have historically been seen to suffer, and they don't seem to be doing anything differently, at least mechanically speaking! The long-term gaurantee of CGS's product, must be a concern, not only to the collector, but also to CGS themselves (if they are genuinely offering a life-time gaurantee on entombed state), as they must realise the potential risks of a claim like that? I can't believe they'd get the backing of an insurance company on such a point. I guess, as numismatist has said LTD, LTD, LTD! Also, Bill, I just wanted to say again that it's very kind of you to come on here and present the case of CGS, and also that I don't want you to think there is any kind of witch hunt in my statements, I fully appreciate you are just another collector, greatly interested in coins and the slabbing process. We all have 'enjoyed' different experiences with our hobby. Perhaps I am too passionate in my belief in CGS and their services but I still respect those who hate slabs. I think I personally went through the emotions that most have when it comes to considering the slabbing of coins. I loathed them, I then tolerated them and now I want my UK collection to be CGS graded! When I noted that certain US slabbed coins had verdigris on them (my observation about looking at ten pennies and finding eight with 'green bits') I am fairly sure that the verdigris was there before the coin was graded and encapsulated. CGS reject coins with verdigris and if a rejected coin is encapsulated, they are labelled with a yellow rejection label (more anon). I was invited to see the CGS process and I was confident enough in what I saw to have now submitted over 2,000 coins to them (yes that is a lot of cost but I believe worth it!). The guarantee is in place from CGS but based upon my experience I will be surprised if there are many (if any) claims against them. I am only human and I may be wrong but having noted my experience of putting my own coins in capsules and getting it wrong (at my cost) - I think I will trust them for now. Why encapsulate rejected coins is something I once asked? The US grading Companies have been doing it for a while but the labels are like a normal label and may have a description such as 'AU DETAILS OBVERSE SCUFFED'. Some people have been caught out buying such coins thinking they had 'passed grading'. CGS opted for a yellow label to make it distinctive. The key here is what if you have a rare (or very scarce) coin that would normally be rejected by CGS. For example an 1862 half penny with a letter by the lighthouse, but the coin is very worn and physically battered. You may be want to sell it and I am sure there will be a buyer for it as a raw coin. However, if sold as a genuine coin which may have otherwise graded as fine but has other problems - I believe it would get a premium price. I recently had two such coins with the letter C by the light house returned in yellow ticketed CGS slabs and will be selling one of them in due course - I will let you know whether my expectation on improved price was met or not.

An excellent observation! Some of the early UK proof sets from 1971 in their 'sealed' Royal Mint containers were impaired because of the air (and glue) used to seal the capsules. Having seen the slabbing process I know virtually all of the air is removed when the coin is encapsulated but not all of it. I am no chemist but I could imagine that there is still sufficient air in the slab that if moisture is present could lead to blemishes (verdigris or other corrosion) of the coin itself. Ideally each coin should be slabbed in an 'inert' gas or vacuum but that would lead to a significant increase in cost for the process (clean air room and Health & Safety of encapsulators). The fall back is the guarantee of the grading company. CGS are unequivocal in their guarantee - if the coin is 'wrong' or it suffers in the capsule (and so long as the capsule is not damaged by outside influence) they will pay up the value of the coin. Having graded nearly 25,000 that is a serious undertaking.

Many companies have had serious issues with customer facing staff. As said, I will be raising the 'telephone conversation' during the CGS forum meeting on Saturday. In my opinion the quality of the CGS graded coin service is beginning to get the traction it deserves. More people have come to realize that CGS does understand UK coins and has a consistent approach to grading (seeing their reference sets of coins was a revelation and represents a significant investment by CGS in their business). It is not until you see six apparently uncirculated with full lustre George V bronze pennies and see them designated as VF to UNC and begin to examine them closely so see 'why' the disparity in grades. Yet many dealers would have said all six were uncirculated - not so with CGS. As to grading - my first article in Coin News dealt with the issues I had with subjective grading. If you had two halfcrowns - say 1902 and 1905 - of equal wear I bet many people would describe the 1905 as a better grade than the 1902 because human nature is fickle. My own 1905 half crown was sold to me some years ago by a dealer who described it as Almost Uncirculated (AU) yet CGS graded it as VF55 (and I was initially gutted, then I discovered that CGS has yet to grade many 1905 half crowns at much better than VF!). While on the matter of grading CGS will 'not grade and slab' at shows (unlike some US companies). They insist that all grading is done in a controlled lighting environment with access to their reference sets. I do whole heartedly accept that grading with slabbing is not for everyone. I welcome debate on the matter and any reasonable critique of the CGS service should be shared (because only by being informed will CGS continue to improve). Keep the observations coming! Bill

When I started getting my 'other slabbed' coins graded by CGS it was to get a uniform size capsule. I then moved onto getting what I thought were rarer more valuable coins graded (and I was shocked at some of the results - bad shocked, not good shocked!). The earlier the coin it appears the higher the grade attributed by some dealers. I have bought coins from a number of UK dealers and very few of them have been consistent and of a level commensurate with CGS results (some persistently have been bad). I used to keep my 'raw' coins in capsules in pull-out trays and one day I pulled out a tray of bronze bun head pennies and thought one of the capsules looked strange. When I had put the coin in the capsule I had not been taking care and I had ended up with a 'beautiful' (sic) green tone across the surface of the coin from verdigris! I had obviously put the coin away when the air was full of moisture (an English summer rainy day!). That is when I made the decision to get all my coins CGS graded. I would add that if I want to show people my coins I can attach my PC to a TV screen and go through the CGS 'virtual gallery' of pictures of my coins - showing each side of the coin immediately before it was slabbed. Bill

As I've said before, I kinda feel that the problem with hammered is that a strict grade related to how much wear a coin has suffered over the years isn't always a very good indicator of whether the coin has 'eye appeal' (ie, whether someone would consider it an asset to their collection) or not. That's not to say there couldn't be benefits to slabbing (in addition to protecting the coin from damage) if a variety was correctly identified, but the main one of the buyer being confident about the reliability of the grading of the coin doesn't attract me much because I don't buy coins dependent on their grade. Plus there's that little niggle that, with a slab, you have the problem of if a coin came with old collectors' tickets, what do you do with them? AFAIK (from the one, previously PCGS slabbed, coin I own) US TPGS bin them. I've not bought a CGS slabbed coin, let alone one with tickets and provenance, so don't know how they would deal with it. Unslabbed coins, the tickets are just included in the envelope or 2"x2" and can then sit under the coin in your cabinet. I guess it would be possible to design a slab that could also hold coin tickets for us er .., traditionalists. If there was a market for such things. But as for coin envelopes (Norweb anyone?) ... Oh, and welcome Bill! Thanks for joining us - most enlightening! I have taken to attaching a small 'dot' (you can buy in any stationery store) to the slab and then I separately keep my tickets, letters of provence etc in a separate folder by Unique Identification Number (the UIN on a CGS coin). I had thought about asking for a separate 'pouch' on the CGS capsule but for some of the information I have on provenance would not fit! Apart from dealers tickets, where provenance is demonstrated (like when sold at a specific auction, letter from the Royal Mint etc) this will be added by CGS to the online record of the coin under the coins 'provenance'. Thanksfor the welcome by the way.

CGS certainly undertake grading and authentication of hammered coins - I too have seen them. I find it enough of a pain making an assessment of a milled coin to want to move onto hammered coins (where arguably each one is unique). Bill

Go for it, it will be interesting. Has the PCGS forum ate itself yet regarding the Morgans Rainbow toning? Lol I would be delighted to see (as far as is practicable) the three coins graded by the three grading companies. It is just possible that the PCGS MS65 will be better than the CGS UNC85 - but it would be a close run thing. As to the NGC MS65 - I refuse to comment. Until recently I would buy PCGS coins sight unseen based upon their label but now I want to see the coin before I will complete a transaction (I came unstuck on three coins each graded MS65 by PCGS). I looked at ten NGC slabbed pennies (copper and bronze) at an auction last year and found verdigris on eight of them - so unless I can examine NGC coins I do not buy them either. I do look for bargains on eBay and elsewhere for CGS graded coins and on occasions have paid more (sometimes much more) than the value suggested by CGS - either to fill a gap in my collection or the coin in my view was undervalued by CGS. Based upon the comments I have seen about 'meeting in car parks', 'telephone manner (and apologies for suggesting you 'got the wrong number')' etc I can only say I have nothing but a positive opinion of CGS and its service. However, as the CGS forum is meeting this coming Saturday I will be taking the opportunity of raising these negative points with the attendees of the forum and soliciting opinion from CGS management. Bill

At the risk of promoting Coin News (and my articles) I actually wrote at length in the piece "Even the experts can get it wrong! Coin Grading - trials and tribulations" in the November 2009 edition explaining how I (with the vast majority of coin collectors) loathed encapsulated coins (I started coin collecting in 1965....). I explained why I changed my mind - and I know others have had a similar change of opinion. But encapsulation is not for everyone. CGS is not perfect and they know they are not perfect. However, they offer a reasonably priced service and I have yet to fault any grade (or rejection) they have done of coins I have submitted to them. I am aware that the odd description is wrong but I find that when bought to their attention they will correct it. If the description is wrong on the capsule they will arrange a new capsule. Sometimes I like the proposed values they place on coins I have successfully submitted and other times I feel the value does not reflect market conditions. Yet, they are the company guaranteeing the value they set in the event that the coin is proven to be 'wrong'. CGS is prepared to listen to a point of view about valuations and will amend prices if they receive reasonable suggestions with sustainable backing (like multiple auction results for the same type of coin). I understand the suggestion about getting a coin graded and allowing it to be 'outside' of the capsule. The problem then is who can guarantee the coin will be kept in the same condition? I bought a halfpenny at auction that had been removed from a CGS capsule, put into a flip plastic folder with the original CGS label (something I used to do when I removed coins from slabs). It had originally graded as UNC80 but on re-submission to CGS it graded as AU78. (I have always said if I took CGS encapsulated coins out of their capsules and submitted them to CGS as 'raw' coins they would probably end up with comparable grades - something I know does not happen with some of the USA Grading companies.) I would not have been surprised if the grade was even lower as in AU75 or even EF70 - the coin was no longer in its capsule and had been subject, albeit minimal, movement. How could I expect it to be the same grade after removal from the capsule? As said, I was not a lover of encapsulated coins (I loathed them) but my mind was changed. I still buy 'raw' coins but unless a stupidly low price I want to examine them before I do buy them. One of the things the CGS service has taught me is to better tell the difference between coin grades - but I am no expert - just better. Bill Pugsley

Or start a competitor. Oh, did I say that out loud? I have been following this thread because of my personal interest in the CGS process. I have had a number of articles published in Coin News dealing with grading of coins (slabbing) and to date I have submitted over 2,000 (yes two thousand!) coins to the CGS Service. I have paid the commercial rate for the grading by CGS because compared to the North American competition CGS pricing is more than reasonable (go and check if you do not believe me). I am so interested in promoting CGS (there, a declared interest!) that I set up and moderate the CGS forum (one of the contributors to these comments has obviously seen the forum because they have extracted in its entirety a ‘frequently asked question and its response’). My expectation is CGS coins will become more collectable and thus premium pieces will increase in value. Dealing with the points made by Colin88 – CGS does not discount but as I have noted their prices are more than reasonable (£11.99 compared to US$35.00). If you want a fast turnaround the submission form on the CGS Site tells you the prices to get coins back in approximately five days! Not deliver in person? Frankly this amazes me and I wonder did he reach the right telephone number? People deliver to CGS by appointment or during office hours; to deliver to NGC or PCGS you need an appointment unless it is one of their agents. CGS accepts deliveries at coin shows that they attend and at London Coin Auctions. As to the suggestion of competition – could they offer the quality of result that CGS does for UK & World coins? NGC and PCGS are companies that CGS is competing against. If you are from North America you will probably implicitly trust NGC and PCGS but having owned coins graded by both companies I have come to prefer (an understatement) the CGS service. Next time you have an NGC graded copper British penny in its capsule – use a decent magnifier and you may find verdigris or corrosion. On this same subject, CGS use Graders who each have over 20 years experience of working with British & World Coins – yet even CGS say if you have coins from North America – get them graded by US Companies. Who else records the varieties that CGS does for the coins it grades? I am told that April 2013 Coin News will have an article on the subject of varieties. I think NGC and PCGS recognise two types of currency silver two pence for 1838 whereas CGS have already identified eight – and the list goes on! I would admit it would be great to get coins back in 14 days (but they advise that for a cost of £11.99 that the turnaround time is 30 to 90 days). The problem I suspect is one of logistics and costs (roll on a competitor I hear you say). Were CGS receiving 1000 coins a week then I am sure that they would put more dedicated time into the grading process and providing a faster turnaround. As it is I believe there are sometimes when they receive many coins in one week and none in the following weeks. This is why they offer estimated times for return of encapsulated coins because they do batch up submissions to be ‘economic’ for grading. If they did not do so they would not be able to run the service at all and we would lose the only British Competition to the US companies. I plan to continue to submit coins to CGS for grading at their commercial rates and accept that I may have to wait up to ninety days for coins to be returned. A delay I am prepared to tolerate given I trust the results of their service!