Red Riley

If we are talking about silver, it shouldn't matter as long as the tone is 1) patently natural and 2) is fairly even. Perhaps the ideal for some is an even greyish tone becoming somewhat paler on the high points.

Don't know whether it's just me, but I actually like that kind of toning on a circulated coin. I would certainly rather have it than the flat dull appearance of a dipped piece.

A bit better than that I would say. Probably NVF with the obverse teetering on the edge of VF maybe.

What amazes me is that with the exception of a few years in which a collective total of over 10 million copper coins were issued, none of them were produced in very large numbers (1806/7 might be exceptions but my books leave the mintages as 'unrecorded'). When the new bronze coins hit the streets in 1860-3, the numbers involved were humungously more than the copper coins they replaced. Since I have never read of small change shortages up to 1860, I wonder why we needed so many more coins starting in the latter part of the 19th century - maybe 10 or 20 times the numbers circulating pre-bronze. Yes, the population was increasing, but not by that much surely? Does anybody have an answer to this?

I have read reports of 1797 pennies circulating up to and beyond the introduction of the bronze coinage in 1860. They and the 1806/7 pennies were known collectively as 'farmers' after 'Farmer George' (George III's nickname - due to his interest in animal husbandry etc.). All copper coins including half-farthings were finally demonetised in 1869.

I would give the whole coin a nice GVF (obv. check wear on curl in front of ear and on leaves), but it does look nice and could approach EF prices.

Here is the coin. Hope it comes out OK.

You could always try having a mad and passionate affair with your secretary (or anyone else's for that matter). That would divert her attention and, trust me, she just wouldn't notice those little brown envelopes anymore!

I could have sworn I'd replied to this. I'm sorry Peckris, but I'm afraid my 'any offers' was purely rhetorical, this is actually the best KN I've got! Nonetheless, I did re-tone it as above. My logic was that as the most plausible explanation for carbon spots is that somebody sneezed in the coins vicinity, then if I could control the process I should be able to make nature work for me, and amazingly it did. I even left a little bit of untoned metal in the obverse legend. The reverse is absolutely spot on, but there are one or two small patches on the obverse. I suspect I should have rubbed over the entire coin with solvent before I started. When I get time I will post a photo.

Yes, but not for badly worn coins. I did greatly improve a 1918KN in GVF which somehow had lost its tone, by spitting on it and leaving it on the window sill for a summer. Any offers?

At the expense of talking to myself, I would add that this is something I am trying at the moment. It was only meant to be 18 months, but the inevitable has happened and of course I can't find the bloody thing! Shame, it's an 1864 plain penny in a high end VF that some twerp had been at with the Duraglit. Sadly I might have to leave it to subsequent generations of numismatists to see whether the 'dirt treatment' really works or not...

Try Tourmaline from Alec Tiranti and Co of Theale, Berks. or at least that's where they used to be. Will certainly improve the coins, but you may have to practice a bit first. Alternatively, you could always bury them in the garden for 10 years...

Whatever the merits of your argument, and I accept it is not ideal that a major auctioneer should also publish price guides, in the real world regulation or even an investigation into their activities just is not going to happen. If Sotheby's and Christie's are the Tesco and Sainsbury's of the auction world, then Spinks are Patel's Corner Store. In all honesty, I have yet to see anything which I regard as fishy. Incompetence and muddle yes (does anybody remember the 2007(?)Coins of England debacle?), but anything designed to defraud, no. Any investigation would be horrendously expensive and could never be regarded as being in the public interest. Like Rob and most other posters on this subject, I would underline that a 'guide' is just that and cannot take on a gospel-like status. To paraphrase Solon (and I'm not casting any aspersions here!), 'Price Guides are for the blind obedience of fools and the guidance of wise men'.

It is beaded border but not rare as such. Being the first of their type, many were hoarded and hence the survivors tend to be loaded towards the high quality end. I don't have the latest price guide, but would guess that it is worth £120 odd. Nice coin.

It's only in Fair condition, to stretch a point we could say NF for the reverse but nonetheless just good honest wear without any damage, so yes, well worth e-baying as a separate item.

Yes but... compare the wear on the plaits which is where they go first. I think what you are comparing here is a coin in NEF or EF with one that is probably NVF. By my reckoning the e-bay coin is likely to be the better bet and I don't think £90 is that outrageous for what looks like quite a nice coin.

I think I go with Peckris on this one. It's quite a soft strike by the look of it but doesn't seem to have too much wear. The obverse is usually more diagnostic but the photo was too fuzzy to see much.

I will answer this one. The finer points of grading are extremely difficult to assess and in all honesty, nobody does it entirely consistently. I'm afraid the answer is something like 'spend 10 years studying and then guess!'. I would suggest that e-bay is not the place to learn grading but good honest dealers are, which can mean a lot of web-surfing as I would imagine that more coins are reliably depicted online than is the case with banknotes.

Had a quick dig around, and the price really isn't that outrageous. I'm clearly getting out of touch as I wouldn't have paid that much for it, but it looks like a lot of people are. Pennies are clearly flavour of the month and prices in the mid to lower grades are being dragged up by the fortunes being realised for top notch coins.

2 things. The reverse die is about to break up (see the crack around 'O') and the obverse die has clearly clashed with its partner at some time. What looks like a spider's web between the neck and the bun is a reverse image of the fabric around Britannia's waist. This is extremely common, so common in fact that a quick check of my collection shows that 5 out of 22 pre-1874 pennies suffer from it to some degree. 1867 is not that rare in the low to middle grades but is actually quite scarce in tip-top condition.

I have seen attested modern fakes of fairly common coins in mid-grade condition. A coin which is worth £50 or so, is far less likely to raise suspicion and be easier to sell than an FDC Gothic, but the workmanship is still spot on. If the annual wage you can get at the local factory is only £500 a year, then you don't have to produce many coins to exceed that figure, and the secret of being a succesful criminal (so they tell me!) is not to be too greedy. Being a numiswotsit is dashed hard these days. The weight you quote is close to that of a genuine coin (13.9g as opposed to 14.1), but I'm not sure whether it's within normal tolerance. Perhaps Chris or someone with more knowledge than me could tell us.

I've just checked 3 or 4 photos of these coins plus one genuine example, and the strength of the dots does seem to vary. I hope I'm not teaching Grandma to suck eggs, but the die axis should be as per modern coins and not 180 deg. to each other. The pre-Victorian shields were notorious for the dies blocking up and some were very vague indeed.

Wasn't it something like 'wosip' or similar?

It would have to be a very good fake. In my view (although I wouldn't want to contradict Chris!) modern fakes emenating from China are far more believable than those produced contemporaneous with the coin, so if it's a fake I would go modern.

I agree, but to be fair they have been quite honest. Personally, I think most Gothic crowns will have seen a bit of Duraglit, or similar at some stage. They were effectively collectors coins from day 1 and 19th century collectors were far less concerned about polishing than we are today, and I don't think it stops at Gothic crowns. Quite often I have seen silver coins in the highest grades where the fields under a magnifying glass reveal the tell-tale signs of abrasives. I think this is something we need to get real about, it need not reduce the grade that much, but its affect on the selling price may be considerable and we should really be on our guard. Anyway, going back to the original post I just wouldn't touch this coin at all unless you must have a Gothic at the cheapest possible price. Even then it would be an unsure investment as your only market if you decided to re-sell would similarly be the 'must haves'. A dealer would only offer you a fraction of list price as the market would be so uncertain.