Red Riley

Thanks for that, I'll give them a try.

This may sound an odd request, but my collecting needs have taken a strange turn... I would like to track down BU examples of pre-Euro i.e. 1980s or 1990s coins from the major European nations - France, Germany, Italy; dates immaterial but really not the sort of thing dealers stock. Any ideas where I can get them from? By the way does anybody agree with me that the obverse of the 1980s West German 50 pfennig is a corker?

Sorry missed this bit out of my last post. Anything post war is what I'm after. I'm trying to put together small representative collections of the larger and older nations.

Looking at it, I think she's planting an oak sapling. Rather evocative I feel.

Somebody either knows a good forger or a good website!

Why so many? If minor changes in design don't count then we have only one reverse and eight distinct obverses. It's really a case of what turns you on, and I'm afraid hyper-varieties just don't do it for me, I'd rather broaden my horizons and go collect roubles or something. If you have 500 varieties of penny, then that's fine if it's what you want. 120 does actually include a fair few varieties if you work it out. I'm sorry if I sounded a bit dismissive, I didn't mean to be, but for me a collection that I couldn't make interesting to a non-numismatist (and few would be enthralled by varieties of the 'pointing to gap or tooth' type) just wouldn't do.

A man after my own heart! But it really is difficult to decide what is a 'real' variety and what isn't. My 1860-1970 penny collection stopped at a grand total of 120 coins becaue that was all I could fit in my cabinet, and there's precious little left that floats my boat. If you read Michael Gouby's 'British Bronze Penny 1860-1970' , he certainly draws the line somewhere; (re a 1937 obverse 'variety') ' Some pennies in 1937 have the upright limb of the 'P' of 'IMP' pointing directly to a tooth in the border, rather than just to the right of the tooth. As this is the only discernable difference, the author feels that it does not warrant an extra entry'). Can you imagine the 1863 penny guy explaining to his nearest and dearest why he has just spent £19k on a penny and how it differs from one worth a fiver?

Probably a worn die. Fairly common in bun pennies and unlikely to have much additional value. Wouldn't bin it though, it's a Royal Mint narrow date and although they come in 101 different varieties, all are at least comparatively scarce, so might fill a hole for someone.

Almost certainly a cracked die. A few more coins and the die would have fallen to bits, at which point the machinery would been have stopped and someone would have started going through all the pennies in the bin to fork out the faulty ones; yours clearly escaped. This type of problem was much more common with early bun pennies. Interesting, but sadly not valuable.

Looks as if it could have suffered a bit of cleaning and reverse a lot worse than obv. (normal). But at £15 I suppose...

Errr, you mean 7 different types, surely! Your comments are interesting, but confusing to me. When these coins were in circulation, every man and his boy collected one of each date, but once you got them, then what, hence the interest in varieties. The fun to me was finding them in my change. I would never have dreamt of going to a coin dealers. It was the hunt rather than ownership that was the fun part of coin collecting for most people. The trouble with coin collecting on ebay is that its taken the fun out of the hobby. No one has any interest in the coins in their pocket any more (2008 dateless 20p being the exception), which is a shame, as that's where the new generation of hobbyist will come from. It seems that most people who hunger after coins are entrepreneurs looking to make a profit, rather than true numismatists. To be fair, few people have taken much interest in the coins in their change since 1971, but after an initial slump where prices remained static for many years, the hobby picked up again from the 1990s, so something is enticing young people to become collectors. You couldn't deny the enthusiasm of the regular contributors to this board, but few I would regard as anything more than collectors/numismatists who may do the odd bit of trading on the side. Entrepreneurs need a market to make a buck and one where one entrepreneur just sells to another soon ends in tears.

Coins are: 1) No idea. What metal is it? Post photo? 2) Farthing, halfpenny or penny. All are common, so would have to be in pretty stonking condition to be worth much. 3) Either a farthing (2.5cm.) or a halfpenny (2.9cm.). The hole would probably render it largely valuless though. 4) At 3.5cm. the cartwheel penny is the closest match. 5) Given the size disparity, probably a twopence (4cm.). Scarcer than the penny but post-mint engraving reduces any value drastically. If you want more info specific to your coins, post photographs; condition is everything in the coin world. From your descriptions however, I really don't think they will be worth very much.

Phew! That would not have been cheap...

I've seen quite a few well circulated 1953 pennies on e bay. There were just over a million minted, so there is no reason to suppose they didn't circulate in a similar manner to say, the 1951 threepence, or the 1952 sixpence, which are of similar mintage. My understanding is all 1953 pennies were issued in sealed PVC folders with the other coins of that year so in that sense they are different. Doesn't mean they couldn't be cut open and spent though.

True - but I'm always amazed that a unique 1952 halfcrown spent 15 years in circulation before being spotted. It just goes to show ... Older collectors have told me of the 'pocket piece' - a coin which through any reason, usually for being unusual is pulled out of circulation and kept in a pocket/purse for years and years and... Explains a lot of unusually badly worn coins - including a 'Fair-' wreath crown that I kept for many years (not in my pocket I would hasten to add!)

I believe they went in 1887. Bizarrely some were dated 1888, but they were produced for British Guiana.

My late father worked in shops from about 1937, and he recalled a superstition among the staff that if anyone spent a crown in the shop, then someone would get the sack! Think he might have been getting confused with the more real dangers of the double florin, but it does show that crowns (probably late Victorian) were still occasionally used at the time. Winding forward a bit, c. 1970 I acquired a 1960 crown from the butchers up the road which they had taken in as legal tender for half a dozen pork chops or whatever. I still have it, and it clearly has some wear.

Fractional farthings (the only one legal tender in the UK was the half farthing) were demoneitised in 1869 at the same time as all other copper issues. I am 99% certain the crown is still legal tender (otherwise why did they make them after 1971 - if they were not legal tender they would not have been coins but medals). Believe the silver 3d, although it left circulation in the late 50s remained legal tender until 1971. For all I know, the double florin is still legal tender.

Apart from obvious things like lack of readies, the reason that I wouldn't entertain a bid stems from the sellers blurb. If you are 'no expert' then how come you've got an 1860/59 penny in the first place? Virtually all of these should by now be in the hands of dealers or knowledgeable collectors, so a lack of knowledge makes me smell a rat. There is a lot of truth in the old adage; 'buy the seller not the product'.

I am not a hammered expert in any way shape or form, but the amount of wear (as opposed to inadequacies caused by the primitive method of striking) appears minimal to me. I would reckon somewhere around very fine, both sides. In any event it is a good deal better than the condition theses things usually turn up in. Sadly, it looks like somebody has already got to it with the Duraglit. Geordie or Clive might be your man.

... which would account for the earlier post saying that said fingerprints take 6 months to show up. Is the answer to dip all your newly acquired BU coins in Toilet Duck? Anyway, we've had some good and interesting discussions on here over the last couple of weeks which haven't involved the question 'how much is such and so worth...'. Well done everybody, keep it up.

Yes, that's what I heard. The worst years in my recollection are 1920 and 1921 but can occur outside these dates too. In most cases it's not too detrimental and can be a feature rather than a fault.

Looks a nice coin. The only wear I can see (but it is only a photo) is on Britannia's shoulder. The king's upper ear is not showing any sign of wear, so for me you may be looking GEF/EF. Just hope it hasn't been photoshopped...

Will try and post a few images in here when I get time, but I have: 1918KN GVF with some remnants of mint lustre. Toning is heading towards mid-dark brown and not at all KN like. Quite well-struck but a bit 'fluffy'. Good portrait. Heavily ghosted. 1918H GVF+. No lustre, but a mid-brown colour (without the KN red). Extremely well struck, no ghosting. It may be that it takes some years of circulation for the fully toned colour to appear. Against this however, I also have: 1919H fairly dismal condition - if anybody has my book, you can see it on p20 (plug over!). This can best be described as a kind of dull brown, the colour of well matured cow muck. In my recollection, this was a fairly common tone for 19Hs but not 18Hs which were almost invariably a very dark brown, almost black. The same applied to 12Hs. I think that what we will find is that, apart perhaps from KNs, there is no consistency across the board. I also think that on the evidence produced so far in this thread (thanks guys!), Heaton's used the same blanks as the RM, whilst King's Norton supplied their own and perhaps topped up the Royal Mint's supplies when these became low. Would be very interesting if Dave could dig out the Coin Monthly article. Seen it ~ typical of a coin of that age with about 50 years heavy circulation behind it. Excellent book, by the way. If there is any justice, it will become a definitive work. A bible for coin grading. Once again, thanks for the kind words. The 18KN on the Colin Cooke site is very similar to the one I have, but rather less worn. Detail and particularly colour is much the same, so perhaps this is just a stage they go through.

Thanks for the kind words. Like most collectors I find that money won't quite stretch to the coins I would like! Derek