Red Riley

Wise words from Chris, but your personality will dictate the type of collection you want. Do you want say, every bronze penny from 1860 to 1970, or would you like a representative sample of many different denominations and eras? The natural collector would tend to prefer the former, but for me, the latter tends to 'float my boat' a bit more. It is probably worth mentioning that nigh on two thousand years of history from Roman (or even Celtic) can be amassed with a surprisingly small outlay and would provide a collection far more interesting to friends and family than one which consisted of a run of dates. On the other hand, many date runs can be put together quite simply and cheaply as long as you aren't too picky about having the best of everything. If you do want only high quality coins, then with care your collection will have a much higher investment potential. Only you can decide where you want to go with this, but whatever you choose, do it because that is what you want to do, not because you feel you should be collecting in a certain way. Start off by reading up on the subject (see above) and take it from there.

You could try scanning what you think are the most interesting and post the images on here. You will no doubt then get several members giving their opinions, which will at least be a start.

About 10p each. The 12H is not a rare coin, although because of its 'H' mintmark, tends to be thought of as such. In fact, those with little knowledge tended to put them aside in the 60s and 70s, as a result of which they are now among the most common of George V pennies.

Michael Gouby is your man. Try this: http://www.michael-coins.co.uk/BP%201915%20varieties.htm

No, these are both the common varieties and having polished them, they are worth no more than their metal value. In fairness, they wouldn't have been worth much more if you hadn't polished them!

If I recall correctly, you stick it on the gas ring...

32,256 are listed in my old Coin Year Book as having been produced in 1860, which is probably just the total of copper pennies that left the mint's front door that year, some of which would not have been overdates. Even so, this is still a fairly paltry figure for a circulation coin - by contrast 120,000 pennies are listed as having been issued in 1951, always considered a very scarce date and in the 20th century generally, over 100,000,000 pennies a year was not unusual.

Okay, here's the overdate. Not the greatest picture but I think it shows just about enough detail. Amazing how wonky the date is in close-up and how kind of unsophisticated the whole overdate process is when you look at it. Of course today, they just wouldn't have bothered.

Hi Bob, I've been playing around trying to reduce this image ti 150kb. Hope it works now. Like most rare coins, the 1860/59 pennies are wholly unremarkable in the flesh, even the overdate being hard to see in worn condition. If this works, I might have a stab at posting an image of merely the date, but not now, it's past my bedtime.

Not that I disbelieve you... Actually, the differences between the standard 1922 penny and the rare type on the website are extremely subtle. Your best bet is to post a picture of the penny's reverse on here. However, if the estimate of 10-15 in existence is correct, your chances of hitting the jackpot are probably approaching a million to one.

As I have said on a different topic, I haven't been around much lately but not surprisingly I would like to add a little more to this thread. The guide really is getting there, and although I hate to blow my own trumpet, I don't think you will be disappointed! Chris and I agreed at an early stage that as grading is such a contentious issue, we would get my initial draft (including pictures) checked through by a number of experts just in case I was out on a limb in any particular area. Only once that exercise had been completed would we press on to publication. As well as to inform, my personal style is to poke fun where I believe it needs poking, and from that point of view, I want this to be a very readable guide without, I hope, too much pomposity. You will also find that there are a number of areas in our current grading system with which I am far from happy and this too is tackled in the introduction. So there you are, it won't be available for Christmas, but will make a darned good Easter present!

Hi Chris, haven't been on here much lately, but your post came just at the right moment. Actually it was an 1860/59 that you sold me. You had an 1849 at the same time but I believe you sold that to another well known forum member. Can't remember who it was though.

As you have discovered, there are two varieties of 1909 penny, and one of them is relatively valuable, the rare one having the following attributes: 1) The '1' points directly to a tooth in the border; 2) The first upright of 'N' points to a gap in the border; 3) The waves in the sea are sharper. On the less worn of the two, the '1' points to a gap, so that excludes that one. The other coin is so worn that individual teeth have all but been obliterated and (3) is ultimately subjective so as Gary D implied, you may have found a rarity, but no-one will ever know, the coin is just too worn. Although they are worth little more than their metal content, anything that is 99 years old deserves a little respect. If you have any kids, give the coins to them, they may love the age thing (especially as they are 100 years old next year). If not, hey maybe one day...

So someone has cottoned on to the idea of forging the slab. Should be easy pickings since slabbed coins are aimed at investors who don't care tuppence about what's inside. I know I shouldn't, but it does make me smile...

Whilst I have obviously seen better Victorian copper pennies, in the current state of the market that represents a real bargain. The fact that you bought it from Australia makes me wonder if, like 1827s, the bulk of the mintage was transported there, only to be lost over time in the outback.

Hi Chris, Don't know whether it's just me, but there doesn't seem to be a picture of a coin on your link.

Hi Chris, Let me have details of the 1860/59 when you can. Since I now work (I know, I know...), I have been waiting for the weekend and good natural light to take a few photos. Hopefully I can get back to you early next week.

I have never looked at anything other than the UK ebay site or if I am desperate for something, the US as well. No reason, just a little lazy I guess and I have always felt that the chances of getting what I wanted in any of the European sites is very low indeed. Re 1840s pennies, I now only want 1849 and 1860/59 for (what I would regard as) the complete set of British copper/bronze pennies. 1860/59s are a known quantity - i.e too expensive for me and almost none in lower grade to cut the cost (if anyone has one for sale, I may still however be interested...). 1849s just never seem to come up in acceptable condition/price as a result of which I have given up looking, but you are right, anything 1840s other than perhaps 1841 or 1844 are worth a king's ransom and I suspect at least two of these 1847 and 1848 just aren't that rare. It just seems that the perception of 1840s pennies as being almost universally rare has pushed up the value of virtually everything.

**WINNER** (and I'm showing my age too!)

Known at the time as 'the Max Bygraves' 50p. Would anyone old enough care to explain?

I will state here and now that almost infinite minute variety just doesn't float my boat. Identifying 13 sub-varieties of a coin which is in itself a variety makes me think that the author badly needs to get a life. Don't despair Dave, just be selective about what you choose and ask yourself the question, 'will this variety be worth more to the average collector?'. If the answer is no, then forget it. For a start, you can throw out anything resulting from die wear - if you take that to its logical conclusion, with sophisticated enough optical equipment, every coin is in a variety of its own. It just depends where you draw the line and a sensible man would draw it way before 13 varieties of 1902 LT penny! Somewhere in Michael Gouby's book 'The British Penny 1860-1970', he states that there are two 'varities' of one coin identified solely by an 'I' or a '9' pointing to either a tooth or a gap, but in his mind that just isn't enough to classify it as a separate variety and he has therefore chosen to ignore it. Michael is heavily into varieties and this makes it clear that he at least knows where to stop. All you need to do, is to think through a sensible definition of a variety and take it from there.

Okay, apologies. Obviously a bad night. We do however get a lot of people posting on here with scant interest in an item beyond what it's worth, and to my mind that is falling into Oscar Wilde's definition of the cynic, whatever the subject. Having re-read your posting, I accept that that that wasn't the situation in your case.

Awwww bless.... thats sweet. Probably worth more than my bloomin 'sovereign' from my gran! Money really isn't everything. If you can't understand that i) your gran meant you to have this irrespective of it's value and ii) they are not a cheap fake but actually tell a far more interesting story than a bog standard Victorian sovereign, then I feel sorry for you. As Colin G says, look up the section on his website. Surprisingly there was a television programme recently on Ernst and his descendants. Damn, why do I always agree with scottishmoney?

Completely agree, but you know my feelings on the term 'uncirculated' anyway. In my view, they should have used the percentage system (e.g. AU50/75 etc.). In my opinion, the quality of the image just isn't able to tell you enough about coins in these high grades. Not certain how you can have a 'black BU' as by sheer definition, an artificially toned coin is designed not to be brilliant! As you say, nice coins though.