Red Riley

If I can quote from the bible, I seem to recall Christ saying (apparently of a Tiberius denarius) 'render unto Caesar what is Caesar's and unto God, what is God's'. So Christ is on the side of the poor sod at the mint that forgot to put the collar with the dollar dies. Perhaps it is some kind of divine intervention but I doubt his employers see it that way. It's an interesting argument to have with a bunch of bible-belt loonies. Watch the shotgun though.

In my experience, the problem was mostly solved by 1921 and with the exception of the 12Hs didn't seem to start until 1914. Nonetheless, the change to the modified effigy took place in 1926 with the small head follwing in 1928, presumably to cut down on the amount of care involved in avoiding the ghosting. In all honesty, I have yet to see a small head penny with any significant ghosting, some coins of George VI actually being rather worse in this regard. What is also noticeable is that the coins from 1914 to 1920 are sometimes very indistinct on both sides with 1920 being quite the worst year. I suppose it's possible that the loss of experienced staff during the first world war contibuted in no small measure to the decline in quality of the coinage, but in all honesty I can think of no modern British series that has been issued with such a low quality of workmanship as the George V penny.

Ever since it arrived, about a month ago, I have been trawling through the reprint of Michael Freeman’s ‘The Bronze Coinage of Great Britain’. When I came to page 200 which contains an explanation of rarity symbols and a note of the number of coins melted down by the Royal Mint, I paused. To put this information in a nutshell, these are the approximate number of coins withdrawn by the mint for melting as compared with the total number produced: Farthings: 8 million out of a total production of 750 million; Halfpennies: 500 million out of a total production of 2,400 million; Pennies: 2,000 million out of a total production of 4,100 million. To put it another way there is 4/6d in loose change still knocking around for every man, woman and child in the country! My first thought was that this information had not been updated since the book was originally published in 1970 (i.e. before the mass withdrawals resulting from decimalisation), but this does not explain perhaps the most surprising conclusion – that 95% of all bronze farthings made (demonetised 1960) still exist. Now, I don’t like to doubt the great man’s word, but I find this wholly unbelievable. If the figures were reduced by a factor of ten, I would still find them difficult to believe. Speaking personally, I have just over £1 worth of pre-decimal bronze knocking around the house –I am however, a collector and therefore have an excuse. But to expect every dwelling in the country to contain a similar amount of obsolete coinage stretches the bounds of credibility beyond breaking point.

Apologies for the last couple of posts. Was attempting to attach a photo of a gothic crown, but was having problems...

Streuth, now that is one ugly portrait. I was, of course, playing devil's advocate at least to some extent. Would I swap the beauty of Wyon's gothic portrait for the realism of the Isabel II effigy? Not on your Nelly! To quote the Australian art critic Robert Hughes (on the portrait represented in my avatar) - '... just looking at it makes you want to climb into the painting and have a thoroughly enjoyable afternoon'. Perhaps I wouldn't go quite so far with Wyon's portraits (perhaps I should rephrase that...), but you get my drift. One of the functions of art, be it on a canvas or a coin, is to stir a positive response in the viewer and yes, I think Wyon's portraiture does that. All things considered however, I still think I would rather meet one of Wyon's imaginary queens than the real Queen Victoria.

Streuth, now that is one ugly portrait. I was, of course, playing devil's advocate at least to some extent. Would I swap the beauty of Wyon's gothic portrait for the realism of the Isabel II effigy? Not on your Nelly! To quote the Australian art critic Robert Hughes (on the portrait represented in my avatar) - '... just looking at it makes you want to climb into the painting and have a thoroughly enjoyable afternoon'. Perhaps I wouldn't go quite so far with Wyon's portraits (perhaps I should rephrase that...), but you get my drift. One of the functions of art, be it on a canvas or a coin, is to stir a positive response in the viewer and yes, I think Wyon's portraiture does that. All things considered however, I still think I would rather meet one of Wyon's imaginary queens than the real Queen Victoria. I can't leave this thread with that awful Isabel II portrait can I? That's better.

And here is an uncirculated 1894 3d ruined by some idiot who wiped it:

Wise advice. As a matter of interest I did read an article a few years ago - I think by a well known American dealer called Halperin(?). In his view, a very high proportion of 19th century American silver coins currently in collections had been cleaned in some form or another. He went on to say that collectors from that era and before were less interested in patina than is currently the case. Silver obviously tones less readily than copper/bronze and cleaning it off is less noticeable to the naked eye. From my observations, I feel that to some extent the same applies in the UK, especially in the middle grades.

I don't want to throw cold water on the theory, but later in the century especially with the bronze pennies of 1874-79, significantly different (i.e. narrow/wide date) reverses were still being produced. By that time, the practice of inserting an 'H' to signify Heaton-produced coins had become established and so the likelihood of one or the other being produced by them is very slim, particularly as H's appear on both narrow and wide date varieties for the years 1874 and 1876.

Sorry to hijack this thread, but it is faintly connected. On the few occasions that I have read Coin News, I have done pretty much what Emperor Oli does - i.e. have a quick look, and then throw it in the recycler. If one article in ten interests me then I am lucky. Problem is that my interests pretty much coincide with most others on this website - British and pre-decimal. I might be tempted to read articles about ancient or mediaeval European coins, but the latest commemorative issue from some tiny republic in the Indian Ocean with a population of 37 leaves me cold. I do not by and large network with other collectors (other than on the internet), so I may be out of touch, but are there any other magazines out there which might suit my interests more closely? If not, I think it's about time we had a word with a friendly publisher!

The F-17 in higher grades are very difficult to find and command a large premium......

Worth pointing out that the F17 is high rarity (Jerrams 50-80 known) and so certainly not worthless, cleaned or not. I would pay £60 for it. On Ebay I imagine it would fetch more.

It is not in prime condition, that's for sure and has some edge damage. But on a strict grading basis it has to be better than NVF - obverse wear in the usual places is minimal from what I can see. You may be right about the cleaning, although a lot of these early bronze coins did produce a very light tone, so without seeing etc... In conclusion it is not a valuable coin and not one you could sell simply by stating its grade. If I were to sell, I would simply post a picture and let the buyer make up their own mind.

Red, My posts must look very amateur because I know I over use exclamation marks all the time, my site is full of them!!! (oops done it again!! )(and again )

Nobody's sticking their neck out so I'll have a stab at the F17. To my mind this is GVF-NEF but would require to see the coin to firm up on it. When grading the earlier bun pennies, the touchstones are the hairline above the eye and the embroidery on the dress which wears from right to left. The reverses are a little more problematic as they tend to be quite various e.g. the shield on some coins is convex and shows wear quite readily whereas others (1860-61 and 1882-94) are quite flat and can be almost the last piece of detail on the coin to wear away. Check out Michael Gouby's 'The British Penny 1860-1970'. With regard to cleaned coins, I would always try to grade accurately and then simply say 'cleaned' if I was going to sell. By the way, it is difficult to judge the grade of the later coin from the scan, but I don't think it will be less than GVF and could be much better. If cleaned however, the value will be not more than a few pounds. Unfortunately, as you are no doubt discovering, there is no substitute for experience where grading is concerned. Can I change my mind? Have now looked in more detail at the reverse of the F17 which appears to show more wear than the obverse, so drop to VF-GVF. See how difficult it is?

You're going to wish you hadn't asked this! Despite my use of it in the previous sentence, I think you should strike the exclamation mark after 'change' in the second line; you have one later on in the paragraph and overuse of exclamation marks just doesn't look professional (sorry, but that's my opinion). Agree that the second sentence needs a little more, as it rather ends in mid air - how about adding something like: 'which can make them worth treble/quadruple/ten times/whatever their face value'. You will also need to switch the word 'colour' in the 2nd line of 2nd para. i.e. 'actual-size colour illustrations'. The only other adjustment that you could make (and this sounds picky) is to end the third paragraph after 'books' with a colon. Otherwise fine. Do I get a free copy?

I have to say that I have mixed views on William Wyon. A great engraver undoubtedly, but there was something of the politician about him. Obviously he got his big break when King George IV (a fat ugly old man) objected to Pistrucci portraying him as... a fat ugly old man. Wyan's effigy was much blander than Pistrucci's and played down the effects of ageing to the extent that the new portrait was acceptable to the eccentric and self-absorbed old king. His portrait of William IV (every bit as fat and ugly, but a much better monarch) was to my mind the best of his career, with more realism and less massaging the ego of a potty old man. His portraits of Queen Victoria however, are where his politicians instinct really comes out. There are contemporary paintings and eventually photographs of the queen which show her as being rather dumpy with virtually no chin. Now the young head portrait which Wyon executed for the coinage is a stunning portrayal of a beautiful young woman, but is it recognisably Victoria??? Clearly it was in Wyon's best interests to portray the young queen in as kind a light as possible, but was this done at the expense of accuracy? Furthermore, the bust on the gothic series has to be my all-time favourite, but would you have recognised Victoria walking down Windsor High Street? Perhaps I have maligned Wyon, as all portrait artists have to flatter their clients to some extent, if only to get paid. I just wonder if Wyon did it more than most.

Copper ore is extremely widely distributed, and although the domestic supplies had largely been worked out or abandoned as uneconomic by the start of WW2, there were ample commercial supplies in the US, Canada and Southern Africa. A surprisingly small amount of metal goes into coin production - e.g. the total amount of copper used by the Royal Mint on domestic coinage between 1860 and 1869 was only just over 2,300 tons and the amount used in WW2 would have amounted to less than one very small shipload.

For me the wear only brings it down to fine, but truly horrible and seemingly cleaned with an angle grinder. Aptly summed up by the link which includes the words '... CHARLES II FART...'

From time to time I have acquired various bronze coins which have had their natural brown toning removed (usually I would guess by small children with a tin of Duraglit). I have yet however to find a satisfactory method of naturally restarting the toning process - the best so far (but only partially succesful) was to spit on the coin and leave it on the window sill for a year. Currently I am experimenting with burying a coin in a flower tub in the garden - hardly hi-tech but it might work. Has anybody out there got a really successful method which I can pinch?

Is each county distinct enough to warrant its own coin? Travelling across America it's like going through lots of different countries: I don't think Britain is like that.

Something in my mind said 'Tahiti' but apparently they use a thing called the French Pacific Franc. You learn somthing everyday.

I do know though that French Guyana, nextdoor to Brazil I believe had to also adopt the Euro.

Looks good. How long do you reckon until it's finished? Oh, and thanks for the thanks if you see what I mean.

Woosh.............................! (sound of something passing way above my head) Looks a nice coin. Is the edge legible?