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My own experience of the ‘No W.W.’ 1858’s are that the numerals are always the large type. I have seen all three numerals with different repairs, some more obvious than others, but I think that each numeral retains the same font type. I believe that some collectors think there is a tall thin numeral one, and a different smaller type, but I think this is an optical illusion due to the position of the base of the 1 in respect to the border. I show below 3 different dates (all No W.W.) with the numeral 1 at varying heights in respect to the border teeth. At first sight, one could be forgiven for thinking that the 1 in the top picture is a taller type. When looking under a digital microscope, however, the numeral 1 appears to be the same height (and type) on all 3 coins. The pictures on the right hand side, taken at 140x mag, illustrate. I actually took the middle picture first, and measured at 1.61 mm height, and then slid the other two coins under the microscope without changing the magnification. I think that is why the other two pictures are marginally out of focus, due perhaps to slight differences in thickness of coins and wear of numerals. Nevertheless, I think it illustrates the point I am making. It can also be noted that the top bar of underneath numeral 1, protruding towards the top left, can be seen at different heights.

The recent purchase is a gilded piece. Thought it was interesting the way the 'full-coin' pictures have come out. I found that when I zoom in close with super-macro setting, trying to optimize the detail, the coin didn't particularly look gilded. From a distance, however, without super-macro it looks much more like the gilded coin does 'in the hand'. I'm no expert on photography, so not really sure why that happened, but show both sets below for info.

Managed to get a decent example of the other type of 1889 Narrow Date. Have labelled them both up as Gouby B for the moment, expecting they will most likely be Ba and Bb in Michael's revised pages.

No worries Mike. Yes, I did buy it.... very soon after it was listed as a BIN, back in 2014. I thought it may have been this one because don't often see a lustred F78.....but I have recorded it as costing £190.

Some breed of 'Cocker' Terry?

I was quite pleased with this one from last week, only £20. It’s a common year, but a nice grade and also a variation on the documented date types on MG’s website. The date is half a tooth wider than other ‘No W.W.’ date types documented by Gouby, with the 5 now slightly to the right of the larger border tooth, and the last 8 directly over a gap rather than a tooth. The numeral ‘1’ is, however, the most interesting feature. The underneath, smaller 1, now showing clearly to both the left and right hand sides of the top 1…….which is also double struck. Documented CP 1858 H date variations can be seen on this link:- http://www.michael-coins.co.uk/cp_1858.htm

Was it this one Mike?

I thought it looked like Jimmy Savile...... am I allowed to say that!? 🤪

Barely visible on any of them until the Hiram Brown one..... which I understand he didn't even know he had

It's the one on this link Cliff

....and here's the Medusa

bargains1* = Alan Stevenson

I'm sure the 1847 Medusa is still less than 20 Richard, and likely to remain so. There was only one of those on ebay in the 5 year period. It was around £15 until the last few seconds, I was amazed when I bid £500 about 3 seconds from the end and was outbid. It was the chap who used to buy on ebay with ID bargains1*, now sadly passed away, with his coins sold off very poorly and cheaply. Re. the Large Rose again, I would be intrigued to see how long it will take you to get to 20. If you were to regard as two separate types then I really think you would struggle to get to 20 examples. My guess is that you may not even get there with the Small Numerals type with the flaw through the 5. I could keep my 13 pictures to one side, or share with you first if you wish, and then they could be cross checked to any new ones reported. Depending upon sub-level, within each year in this series, there may be other candidates. Off top of my head, 1854/3 (real ones!), Bramah 3b, the 1843 DFF, 1853PT with the italic 5 date style, a couple of 1845 date varieties (not the obverse with the big die flaw at front of truncation).........and then there are always the dots, ha ha!! Just a thought

That's 13 in 5 years on ebay Richard, not the total population. I reckon that's definitely in excess of 20. My study was just 5 years of ebay. I have seen several others in the past 9 years, including my best large date specimen.

Hi Martin, Thanks for that, and your question. I was just about to reply to Mike to say that the % may be a little higher then 0.54%. I am sure that the 13 are all different examples. You can always find other unique markings on coins to check on this. The only one listed twice was the first one in 2006 which I mentioned above. So result was 13, not 14. However, some of the other 1858's in the sample of 2400'ish will have been double counted. I cannot possibly check for every instance of listing same coins. Apart from the fact that some pictures are really poor, when coins swap hands and are re-listed by a different seller then the pictures always change significantly. If I were to give it a best guess I would say that discounting relist of same coins over the period then the total population may go down by a couple of hundred, but I think would still be over 2000. Hope this helps. I have pictures of all 13 large roses if anyone wishes to see any other examples. My small date, which I pictured earlier, I bought on ebay for £23 in March 2009. Here are the ebay actual pictures. P.S. I now know who Rashenley is!

Found it : Auction 137, 3/6/12, Lot 478. Sold for £600. The diagnostic feature of the genuinely small date is a die crack running up through the 5 of the date. Think this is the only one sold by London Coins - as I say, their other ones are mistakenly called this small date when they are not. I have a low grade one also with the die crack and think I have seen a picture somewhere on this forum (where??) of another. Any more known by anyone? I spent this morning looking through all my pictures of 1858 pennies sold on ebay in the 5 year period between September 2006 and September 2011. I have been gradually trying to do stats on some of the easier dates but thought in light of the discussion on 1858 Large Rose pennies I would try to come up with something useful for that particular variety. This meant trawling through nearly 5000 images of around 2400 coins. I think that the numbers below will be fairly representative of 1858 Large Roses as a percentage of the entire 1858 population, because in the period 2006-2011 it was only known about by a handful of collectors, prior to the LCA 2012 piece which was only in Fine grade and fetched £600. From the 2400'ish 1858's listed on ebay in these 5 years, there were 13 Large Roses, 6 Small Dates and 7 Large Dates. Two interesting things I also noted were:- 1) The very first one in my study was listed in late 2006. It was an ok grade but was re-listed again a week later because it didn't sell. 2) The second one, which sold around mid-2007, I was surprisingly outbid on at the last minute. This was when we could still see the ebay ID's of other bidders, so it sparked off a discussion between me and John S. about who the bidder called Rashenley actually was.........but I guess that's a secret! I think that the 1858 LR's are one of my favourite varieties in the YH penny series, and have perhaps become a little under-rated since 2012. Like John, I spent quite a time getting my first decent specimen. The 2012 LCA sale prompted collectors to search their own collections to see if they already had one; this resulted in a few more seen at subsequent LCA auctions, several of which I think have been 'doing the rounds' without actually increasing the overall population.

Yes, correct Mike. The DEF colon dots on the 1858LR Small date are the type which Gouby gives as CP 1858 F. Link to his site below:- http://www.michael-coins.co.uk/cp1858DEF.htm

The 1858 Large Rose reverse which is paired with the small date obverse I believe is a completely different die to the Large Rose reverse which is paired with the large date obverse. Pictures of both reverses are attached, where the first obvious difference to note is the colon dot positions. There are also other differences to individual letters in the legends, which can be seen with close up pictures. The Obverse 1858 with large numerals (some think a 9/8), apart from being interesting because of it's peculiar overdate, has the added interest of being seen paired with 3 different reverse dies; the large rose reverse being the second of those. I can provide further details about this if anyone wants more information.

There's also a 1902 low tide variety with the bar in the zero and an inverted wavy 2.

Interesting that he has missed probably the most interesting variant, i.e. with the bar in the zero, as per image below. I guess that's understandable if you only have a small sample of 27 coins though.

Trying quite hard with this one:- https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/1845-VICTORIA-COPPER-PENNY/224097567098?hash=item342d41817a:g:D7kAAOSwvgVfIIaY

Ok, I have done this now Richard. It actually wasn't as easy as I thought it would be, but I'm pleased that you asked me for this information because I was a little surprised at the results. I had always thought that there were definitely more of the 'Large Numeral' type than the 'Small Numeral' type, but it turns out they were pretty close. I spent about 3 hours zooming in on all the images, and then double checked I had sorted correctly, Any that I was unsure about I did not include in the figures; some ebay pictures are not great! Anyway, 138 over 5 years split as follows:- 21 Could Not Tell / 55 Small Numerals / 62 Large Numerals. Hope that's useful for some members.

There was a post about 1902LT on the forum back in October 2015 about 2 different types. Different spacings of numerals and top bar across numeral zero.

I hadn't gone down to that level on the 1856's yet Richard, but guess it wouldn't take me long..... so will do it over next few days. Trouble is at the moment I'm writing up my Gambia Banknote collection whilst at the same time digging the neighbours Aspen roots out....... which are knackering my lawn. Wife now retired so need to be a bit careful about computer time!

I did an exercise on ebay for a full 5 years between 10 and 15 years ago where I took images of all Victorian Copper Pennies that were listed. Over that period, for 1856, there were 138 PT's listed and 79 OT's, some may have been listed more than once, but figures are still comparable....I think. Maybe this gives a guide as to rarity. There were very few in high grade, both types.