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Hi Pete, No worries! Those boxes with the three types of 5 fonts are all exactly same dimensions. I could measure numeral sizes but didn't bother because they all look around the same height and width to me, so no real startling differences to report...…...unlike say an 1857 numeral 7 or an 1859 numeral 9 where font sizes can be distinctly different. I guess the italic 5 looks a bit wider than the others, but then if you were to rotate it to stand upright you could say it would become narrower. I prefer to call this an italic 5 rather than a 'large one'. i.e. following the lead given by Gouby on his website:- http://www.michael-coins.co.uk/1853_penny.htm Hope that helps,

The spreadsheet was supposed to appear before the pictures!! Anyway, here is the promised 1853 PT Italic 5

One small spreadsheet, but a lot of work:- I mentioned a few days ago that I had taken pictures of all ebay listings of Victorian ‘Young Head’ copper pennies over a 5 year period, this was from September 18th 2008 to September 17th 2013. I did this with the aim of trying to compile some useful statistics when time permitted. Attached is my initial spreadsheet for 1853 Pennies, this may help clarify the rarity of the Plain Trident (PT) pennies compared to OT currently available in the market place………and I suspect fairly close to the original mintage percentages. I also attach images, at identical resolution, of the three different font types for numeral 5 (which I know of) used on the 1853 penny. Pete’s earlier comment about the ‘large 5’ was referencing Gouby Style A, sometimes also called Italic 5. This date type is very rare when found paired with the Plain Trident reverse, with a count of only 9 in the above spreadsheet. On the obverse of this variety I believe there may always be a small dot between the I and A of GRATIA, although I cannot be 100% sure on all 9 of these coins because of the image quality. I will follow on with images of my own piece, which I was lucky enough to find in 2014, where this dot can clearly be seen. I also think that this exact same obverse is paired with the much more common Ornamental Trident variety, presumably on coins struck around the time that the Plain Trident was first introduced…….so the I.A in GRATIA can also be found on OT. In this spreadsheet I also decided to include stats for the Peck 1503 variety, sometimes known as the Closer DEF colon, i.e. NOT midway between the F of DEF and Britannia’s toes (as is usually seen). Bramah references this as his type 15 saying “last colon is 1mm from the F, and 2 1/4mm from Britannia's foot; he also goes on to say:- Coming to the trident divisions, the O.T. class of 1853 is common while those with P.T. must be accounted almost rare. The sub-division No. 15 of the O.T. class of this year is also rare. I often wonder, with current knowledge and a blank sheet of paper, how one would now categorise the features that are seen on the 1839 to 1860/59 penny series. There are certainly a number of interesting things seen with regard to colon dots, but where does one draw the line? For example, if one just looks at the 1853 penny, the colon dots after DEF are not just seen ‘closer’ to F, and normally aligned midway to the toes, but also in a number of other ‘in between’ positions…………and the individual dots can be seen a) almost touching, quite distant from one another, and c) distinctly slanted in both directions. Indeed, Bramah again recognises this on his Page 108 by saying:- Another prolific source of minor variation is provided by the colons on the rev. Probably every die creates a colon variant and the only really satisfactory way of describing the position identifiably is by measurement and by the rather delicate indication afforded by projecting the line of each colon and so cutting the inscription opposite. Anyway, I do not wish to hog this site so I will cut off now and invite anyone interested in this area to ask questions or clarification on the spreadsheet numbers.

The digital microscope I use was bought around 4 years ago, so I expect there may be some better ones out there for similar price, but I haven't checked recently. You can see on the following link:- https://www.dino-lite.eu/index.php/en/component/k2/item/2566-am4815ztl P.S. You need a good stand as well to focus in accurately.

Now, with my anorak on, I did capture ebay images of every 1841 to 1860/59 penny listed on ebay, every day for a full 5 years. I am gradually compiling stats on varieties, but have yet to do this for the 1858 large rose pieces. These images were captured before the large rose variety started to become better known by collectors (i.e. after London Coins sold one in Fine 35 for £600 hammer at their June 2012 auction) so I think when I get round to doing these stats they will reflect the full population quite well. My memory is that there were around a half dozen of each of the two types sold on ebay in 5 years, and that none of them was advertised as such!

For reference, and at same magnification, here are the two obverse date styles associated with the two large 're-cut' rose reverses

Members may also know that in addition to this large rose reverse which is paired with the strange overdate obverse, there is also a second re-cut large rose reverse variety (different die) which is paired with a small date obverse (pictures attached for information). This small date variety to my knowledge always displays the die crack though numeral 5 and, on the reverse, has the ghosting above Britannia’s right hand, and a single mark below left knee. Also note the slanted colon after DEF, which is the type given by MG on his website as CP1858F…..for those of you perhaps seeking this rare variety:- http://www.michael-coins.co.uk/cp1858DEF.htm

Interestingly this exact same obverse is also seen paired with two other reverses which do NOT have a large rose. This obverse exhibits progressive die flawing which commences at a border tooth to the top of the A of VICTORIA, and later develops through this A to Victoria’s head. Further flaws also develop at the front of the truncation to the border tooth 8 teeth to the left of the numeral 1, and also at the base of the OR of VICTORIA. This progressive obverse flawing gives us a timeline which proves that the large rose reverse is the middle one of the three reverses (which I know of to date) seen paired with this strange overdate obverse. If any member wishes to see my detailed email with high definition images, which I sent to MG several years ago about this, then please PM me with your own email address…..as I cannot post images over 500Mb on the forum.

An explanation of it being a 9 was given on this forum link by Michael Gouby back in 2009. Scroll down to last text:- http://forums.collectors.com/messageview.cfm?catid=6&threadid=712566&STARTPAGE=1 Whilst I don't have an electron microscope (did actually use one on Apollo moon samples) this is the best picture I have of this overdate using my digital 140x

...sorry about the spelling mistake in my last post, my brother would rip my head off for that!!

That's a nice coin Richard. I think the dot by the outer ribbon on my coin is something that happened later in the life, rather than a flaw or something from original minting. I have a lower grade F16 where I cannot see the 3 small dots at bust. On your coin I notice that there is a flaw from the rim just after F and wonder whether other members may be able to check there own specimens for that flaw + 3 dots and, if found, then check to see what appears where your potential 'LC WYON' is situated. I probably can't get back to this now until early next week

I have found an F16 which has some, not all, of the marks which also appear on Richard's Baldwin's coin; my F16 is 'pesky' slabbed so this is the best picture I have at present. I have highlighted the identical marks with red arrows. My coin does have a couple of additional marks which Richard's does not display, and my piece also seems more 'hollowed' under the bust...............as one would expect for this type. I'm thinking that the marks which are identical on these two specimens seem to indicate both have been struck from the same obverse die and, if that is the case, would strengthen the argument that Richard's coin does NOT have LC WYON in a new 'bust position', and is more likely to be the result of a combination of the reverse teeth gap clashing and some additional metal. Perhaps Richard could check to see if his piece also has that dot near the end of the outer ribbon.

I wonder if any member has ever attempted to study differences in LC WYON locations. Perhaps we should all now be examining our own specimens to see if the W of LC WYON is ever seen anywhere other than under centre of the rose.

Yes, the one on Richard's site as his example 9, also with a different date width to the usual F24's. Maybe we need to ask Bernie how many F24 die pairings!

I have seen similar marks under the bust on several early bun years, attached are two examples from 1861 and 1860. They seem to come in different thicknesses and pointedness (if that's a word!). My guess is that on my two examples this is reverse ghosting of the areas between the teeth. I am not sure this is what is going on with Richard's coin though; it almost looks as though the top half of a C (of LC WYON) is present on that Baldwin's coin.

Thanks Mike I'm sure you are right, but you never know, I did sell my F24 and F27 when the "I need another holiday" pressure was on!

Probably one of the last pieces I will ever sell Mike, may even take that one with me to the grave...........although I have difficulty explaining that sort of thing to my wife!

Hi Mike, picture of obverse of that F32 Type 2 is attached as requested. It is not actually in my own collection, but can be seen on Richard's rarestpennies website as his example number 8. The only example of F32 which I have retained is the one also shown on his website as example 12. Despite the low definition obverse picture of example No. 8 I can now see the V to linear circle distances differ.................thanks to Bernie pointing this out.

...when I said 'pictured above' I meant on Page 96 of this thread!

Re. Bernie’s comment “two known die parings of F32”, I have only ever owned a couple of this rare type, so not studied in any detail, but my own findings do show two different reverse date types…………as pictured on the attachment. I think the top date is more common, and same as the ones pictured above, but the bottom date in my attachment has the last numeral one even more slanted than the commoner type. Full reverse picture also attached for reference. May I ask if it is this reverse ‘date variation’ which prompted the “two known die parings” comment, or whether there is some other feature which I have not yet observed? I have noticed that some of the commoner reverse date type develop a die flaw after the first N of PENNY (same as Jerry’s example, top one of the 3 pictured above), but also wonder if there is more than one obverse involved on an F32.

Think zookeperz has now covered much of what I have just typed, but here goes anyway! I believe this is a Gouby Date Style A http://www.michael-coins.co.uk/cp_1858.htm Pictures of one of my own examples attached; think exact same dies, noting the following:- · Same die flaw to front of truncation, looks to be a bit more developed on your piece · Same die flaw as your piece (highlighted with red arrows) around the T of VICTORIA · Not pictured, but my example also has an additional obverse flaw running through the base of the TIA of GRATIA, same as on your own coin · Same very close REG colon position, note G repaired · Same N’s of BRITANNIAR, particularly noting the clumsy 2nd N repair · Date has small additional piece to inner bottom loop of the 1st numeral 8 (again highlighted with arrow) · 8’s seem a little ‘pointed’ at top left of top loop (again highlighted), yours may have an additional mark which I think has suggested to Pete it may be an overdate……...which I don’t think it will be! Not a particularly rare variety in my opinion, colons on the Victorian copper penny series are all over the place!

I'm not an expert on Indian coins, but I do have a collection of George VI World coins for the last year he appeared on every Country, and for all denominations. I have now completed this 'sideline' collection of 150 coins, trying to acquire as high a grade as possible. For India this meant finding a 1947 Half Anna from the Bombay mint, which at first sight (looking at supposed mintage figures) I thought would be a real doddle! I think I looked for two years before I found a low grade piece, which I let pass because I wanted UNC, perhaps in hindsight that was a mistake. Anyway, I did eventually find a nice example but unfortunately the seller also knew it was an extremely difficult type to locate, so I found myself paying the asking price rather than risk regretting letting it go and then never finding a decent one again. It was in fact the second most expensive piece in this small collection, more than the 1952 BWA Sixpence and almost as much as the 1952 Mint State Australian Sixpence. Pictures are attached for your reference, small dots on both reverse and obverse as I think you were expecting.

Nothing gets past you Terry Think I have experienced similar 'mixed up' pictures on ebay about half a dozen times over the years. If the listing had not been restricted to ebay.de then I think there could have been much competition over this one..........and a big price, and subsequent disappointment............caveat emptor!!

Did anyone see this ebay listing:- https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Great-BRITAIN-ONE-PENNY-1908-/112878742292?_trksid=p2047675.l2557&ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT&nma=true&si=S7CDmUU14oM%252FkBzkbMKSWjTp4i4%253D&orig_cvip=true&rt=nc

Sounds like with all those exclamation marks and precise price that it must have been you Richard