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Hi Gary, I haven't particularly studied the many variations in colon dot positions; in my experience the dot locations always vary a little bit from one die to the next. I have acquired a nice 1853 Peck 1503, because it is a documented type, and have also noticed that 1851's (all OT's of course) have DEF colons at close, interim and far positions. Below are examples of the close and interim on Gouby Style 2A (second 1 over 1), and Gouby Style 3 respectively.

I agree that the second 5 on my coin is normal; it perhaps looks a bit fatter because it is tilted anti-clockwise. In the absence of a really good close-up picture, I think it's impossible to tell what's going on with that date on your coin. It could, for example, just be some grime on the inner curve, or some 'post-strike' damage (like the attached picture) making that part of the numeral look fatter than it was when struck.

Any thoughts on this 1855PT re. 2nd 5 being slightly "fatter"?

Hi Gary, this is an Ornamental Trident

Interesting that you mentioned J. B. de Loynes. He was Chairman of The Gambia Currency Board after their Independence in 1965, and prior to the formation of The Central Bank of The Gambia in 1971. He changed his name to drop the 'de' later in life.

Any chance of a better picture of this 'central panel' please Richard?

Would anyone be interested in seeing some work I have done on Victorian Young Head Numeral 5 Fonts? If I get a few 'yes' replies I will put on the site, but I don't want to fill it up with large pictures for those who aren't interested. I can always send the details by PM........assuming she's still available...........ha ha!!

Hi Pete, Just checked back through all my 1896 sales and never had an Ad. Had all the other 1896 date widths though, so guessing it is fairly rare, although I never search for that type nowadays. I do still look for the 1889 wide date and was quite jealous when I saw the one you found!!

I see there's a nice rare commemorative version too!!!!

I was poor when I was young.I worked hard all my life, and now I am old.

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/144753106390 Bargain!

When Uranus was in total eclipse by a full moon whilst in Libra.

Thanks all, and 'yes' of course Richard please feel free. If you want them modified in any way plz email me.

Yes, Richard I agree with your own findings. I was just trying to focus on the 7 fonts in the earlier post, not the full date numeral locations. I have actually found 5 slightly different numeral locations on the 1857 Date Style E's. These 5 obverse dies also have die flaws in different locations; that is what helped me realise there must be several obverses with this font, and then go on to examine the minor date differences. I had previously thought that the 'Long 7' variety was rarer than it is. Below are some initial stats from my '5 year' ebay study from yonks ago. I did it just to obtain Long 7 stats, and still need to do some work on other types of 1857, but you can also see the OT/PT split. 1857 Volume Analysis (5 Years all ebay listings) Year 1 Year 2 Year 3 Year 4 Year 5 TOTALS OT 27 33 42 43 43 188 32.36% PT 62 62 66 102 101 393 67.64% Cannot See Trident 9 4 2 13 13 41 PT Split Long 7 9 10 7 17 23 66 11.36% Cannot See Date 5 2 1 0 7 15 Other Date Types 48 50 58 85 71 312

Things which I have noted in second group of pictures:- · Date Style E is the only ‘7’ font which has a different height, at 1.75mm, instead of 1.64mm for all the others. I believe this is the variety recorded by Peck as P1514 (Smaller Date) and Bramah as B24a (Date in much smaller figures). Gouby, however, says “long ‘down’ leg with a short top bar. Possibly scarcer date font type to the other shorter squatter types of 7’s”. Personally, I prefer Gouby’s description, and find the Peck / Bramah ‘smaller’ references to be a bit misleading, even though the 7 is clearly ‘narrower’ on this font. I call it the ‘longer or slender 7’. · The bottom two pictures show coins which I don’t feel fit any of the recorded types. These coins do not have a down tooth which tapers to a point, but are rather a more rectangular shape with a flat end to the ‘tooth’. I have not found these types to be particularly uncommon, so you may well be able to find one if interested in adding to your own collection.

That’s nice thanks Mike / Bruce. I will attach two sets of 4 pictures, in two posts due to limit of 500MB (i.e. 8 different coins in total). These have all been taken at 140x mag. and by slipping different coins under the lens without changing any microscope settings. You will see that I have indicated the Gouby Date Style, where known, and also measured the height of the different looking numeral 7’s. I have not pictured Gouby Date Style B because I believe the numeral 7 to be same font style as Gouby Date Style A, it just has numerals 5 and 7 closer together. I can add a further picture of Gouby Date Style B, however, if you wish to see…..please ask. Things which I have noted in first group of pictures:- · On Gouby website, for Date Style C, he says “The 7 has no down tooth at end of top bar”. My picture indicates, however, that there may be a tiny down tooth, perhaps the remains of a once longer tooth. The other thing I have noted is that Date Style C appears paired with both PT and OT reverses, and these are from 2 different obverse dies with slightly differing numeral spacings, and repairs to numeral 8. Again, I can add full date pictures for both PT and OT Date Style C’s if anyone wishes to see these. Date Style C’s are quite difficult to find. · I am unsure how to classify the picture bottom right, hence the Gouby ? Thoughts welcomed.

Seeing we have been discussing 1857's recently would you, or anyone else, be interested in seeing some close ups of the different types of numeral 7 fonts (definite and possible) which I have recorded for 1857's in my own collection?

Afraid I had to withdraw the 1853 Italic 5 coin because I didn't agree with the way the lot was going to be sold. The coin with plain 5 date style is still up for their September sale, Lot 1518.

Thanks all for comments and Baldwins sale reference picture. I have just realised why I had cross referenced the link to the LCA auction in my collection, and put 'Proof?' alongside my own 1857 penny. It is because there are some legend features on both the obverse and reverse of my own coin which exactly match the London Coin pictures, which you can see if you enlarge the LCA pictures to better see the detail. I attach 3 of my own digital microscope pictures to show 3 of these legend repairs. My own coin doesn't look like a proof to me, but I'm happy to sell it for £789 to the first taker.......and no Buyer's Premium!!

Just came across this sale, which I cross referenced in my collection yonks ago. Can anyone shed light please, doesn't particularly look like a proof to me; is that what it's saying? http://www.londoncoins.co.uk/?page=Pastresults&auc=124&searchlot=666&searchtype=2

Just sold this coin to another member. Richard, you may wish to add to your rarestpennies website

The holes were practical in some countries, coins worn on strings around the neck, like this tiny West African 1/10th penny

Should have mentioned it is the large date obverse.

Sorry to interrupt the interesting Prisoner thread, but I thought I would talk about pennies again if that's ok. If 'The Future', or anyone else for that matter, is interested in rarer coins with holes in them, then they may want to purchase my spare 1858 Large Rose pictured below. Probably rarer than the 1860 Triple F, which went for £57.99, but I would be happy to sell it for less than that..........if anyone wants to wear it around their neck or something! PM me if interested.