brg5658

While this is not a British coin/token, some of you may appreciate seeing an example of a Civil War Patriotic Token. Around the time of the civil war in the USA, first silver and gold, and then eventually copper-nickel small cents were hoarded. As you can imagine, this made everyday small transactions difficult. This shortage of small change is similar to the effects seen in Great Britain from 1787-1804 and again from 1811-1817 -- and simiarly, private issuers took matters into their own hands. From 1861 until such tokens were made illegal in 1864, millions of tokens were issued by private entities; some were adverts or store-cards, many were intended for commerce, and still others were for collectors or struck as trial pieces. In total, there are more than 7,000 different tokens, most considered quite collectible (mostly due to their interesting historical connection). I have found one particular website to be most helpful in identification of these tokens (http://home.comcast.net/~bluitje104189mi/Civil_War_Patriotic_Token_Die_List_0.htm) picturing almost all of the patriotic die designs, and many of the store cards. Below is a common token from the era, with an uncommon sharp strike and lovely original surfaces. 1863 Civil War Token, Fuld-176/271a (NGC MS64BN)

Birchall in his 1796 work says the obverse is the Crown (right) side. Conder in his 1798 work says the obverse is the Crest and Wolf (left) side. Pye in his 1801 work pictures the obverse as the Crown (right) side. Atkins in his 1892 work says the obverse is the Crest and Wolf (left) side. Dalton & Hamer in their 1910s work list the obverse as the Crest and Wolf (left) side. In summary, most collectors today would consider the Crest and Wolf as the obverse, as Dalton and Hamer is the reference of choice. But, as you can see above, the designation is somewhat arbitrary and inconsistent.

Since one member here likes to play the "victim" card at all times, I will refrain from posting my informed US TPG opinions in this thread anymore. Before I leave this "discussion", I will just disclose that over the past 5-7 years I have viewed thousands of PCGS and NGC graded coins in hand. My current collection, along with many raw coins, includes just north of 650 slabbed coins by these two companies. I do not believe they are infallible, nor do I believe any dealer posting his grades for a coin in his case or on his website is infallible. I look at the coin, grade it for myself, and determine how much I am willing to pay. With regard to the "victim": to have such strong opinions about something when you know little to nothing of it is comical. Notice that I don't have strong opinions for or against CGS as I have no experience with them. It is not a matter of a "personal vendetta" or "stalking" (which I have been accused of); it is a matter of facts. Just one or two members in particular here seem to want to spout off about things that they obviously don't know much about. It seems we were just down this road a few weeks ago...sigh. Alas, I am your guest on this British website, so I will let this thread be -- mis-truths and all. And, for the record (since facts are king), NGC doesn't grade coins while still in their plastic flips. Which, if you actually watch the video that was posted, is made abundantly clear at 1:39, 1:52, and 2:51 when graders are handling coins outside of the plastic flips. Cheers.

Funny you quote this guy. He is one of the most skeazy and unrespected dealers in the USA market. Maybe your opinions of him and his thoughts will change when viewing his website, with laughable asking prices (look at this one which SOLD!!!: http://www.randicoins.com/store/pc/SOLD-1948-P-FRANKLIN-NGC-MS-68-STAR-FBL-6p1147.htm). That coin is a crazy example of AT and shame on both seller and buyer (the latter with more money than sense). Nevertheless, on that particular video the man DOES talk sense. What is the slightest bit controversial or unreasonable about (1) buying the coin not the slab or number, and (2) pointing out inconsistencies in grading due to damage inflicted before slabbing that hadn't yet shown up during the slabbing process? Is the video taken at face value controversial or unreasonable? No, not at all! But, there is also nothing profound or novel about it. Knowing who Rick Tomaska is, I see the video as nothing more than his normal drivel encouraging people to buy only the supposed "one of a kind" coins that he has in his inventory. Or phrased another way, his way of trying to justify the absolutely absurd asking prices of many of the coins in his inventory. I don't need a greasy haired "car-salesman-type" dealer to tell me what to look for in a coin. Especially a dealer whose entire business model is to fleece people for coins that are over-hyped and often unsightly. That was my point -- I found it rather ironic that the poster-child for someone who was "speaking truth" was someone of such ill-repute as this.

Are you sure about that? I believe Karl may be one of the experts on retainer for specific questions on difficult coins, but I have never heard that he was a grader at PCGS. His biography on his website also mentions nothing of this sort. Not to mention that the vast majority of the offerings on his PDF lists are raw material, with only occasional PCGS and NGC graded world material. I would be very surprised if Karl was ever a regular grader at PCGS.

The vast majority of coins consigned to Heritage are already slabbed. And, a huge proportion of their auctioned coins are graded by PCGS. I think it would require quite a "conspiracy theory" mentality to make such a connection.

Heritage is a part owner of NGC. PCGS is a publicly traded company under the umbrella of "Collectors Universe". I don't see how either of those two pieces of information have anything to do with the ability of NGC and PCGS to grade coins to the liking of British collectors.

Funny you quote this guy. He is one of the most skeazy and unrespected dealers in the USA market. Maybe your opinions of him and his thoughts will change when viewing his website, with laughable asking prices (look at this one which SOLD!!!: http://www.randicoins.com/store/pc/SOLD-1948-P-FRANKLIN-NGC-MS-68-STAR-FBL-6p1147.htm).

Nicholas, that coin was on my watch list. It wasn't among my serious contention coins, but the look definitely caught my attention when I was viewing the lots. Great coin, and I think you'll love it in hand!

What? That emoticon means I'm just watching the "show"...watching everyone get their feathers ruffled by the (incessant and recurring) TPG argument. That's all. Probably due to the inconsistancies of said TPGs. Personally what Ruffles my feathers is what happens when the coins are slabbed and the unrealistic prices asked on ebay and auction houses. I know i should'nt get involved because its not my money i'm wasting, perhaps its the TPGs who need educating as well as the collectors/fools that keep buying into these slab numbers. Just my opinion........ If you want to raise your blood pressure and be miserable, then trying to police places like eBay is a good start. I learned many years ago that people will ask what they want and other people will usually pay those asking prices. With regard to the TPGs, I think a lot of the issue is the attempt at taking on too many different types of coins. How is your grading of 21st Century African coins? How about your grading skills of 16th Century German Talers? 19th Century US coins? It's easy to recognize the discrepancies when one is very focused on their niche collecting realm (I'm not making excuses for the TPGs); but, I'm just saying it's pretty understandable that they get lost in the "world" of so many different coins. NGC and PCGS are both quite consistent and well-respected for grading of USA coins. NGC has many years more experience than PCGS at grading significant numbers of non-USA coins. Despite the comments by many here, sight unseen, I would almost always have the non-USA coin graded by NGC than the equivalently graded PCGS coin. Both companies make mistakes on attributions, but so does every other TPG that exists. It's ultimately the responsibility of the collector and buyer to know what they are buying. My most recent personal experience with an NGC graded coin was with my avatar-based coin. I purchased an Australian 1934-35 Centenary Florin on eBay in October, in an NGC MS62 graded holder. But, it was this holder and lowish grade that kept the coin affordable. After I received it, I confirmed what I had thought from the images that the coin was actually a specimen strike of the issue. I emailed Vince Verheyen (the guy who wrote the article on specimen and proof strikes for that coin), who confirmed that it was one of about 15 known specimen strikes (with the riders left nipple prominent/present). I purchased it for $503, Verheyen said he thought it would fetch around $8K to $10K in a well publicized Australian Auction. So, from my perception, knowledge is power -- and sometimes the lack of knowledge of the TPGs is to the benefit of educated/informed collectors. Another experience I recently had was with the EPN world auction. There were three lots that I was interested in because of the type of token for sale, and because of the general "grade range" that I usually know I appreciate. NGC graded all three lots at AU58BN, MS63BN, and MS64BN. As the auction approached, Heritage posted better images of all of the lots in the sale. After viewing those pictures, I knew that 1) I didn't agree with any of the NGC grades assigned, and 2) I was no longer interested in the lots because they didn't meet my particular collecting quality. I didn't draft a strongly worded email to NGC to complain, I just looked at the coins, saw what they were, and I passed. There will be other coins that come along... Take away message: Collect and buy what you like. Complaining about TPGs (particularly PCGS and NGC) is sort of like complaining about the weather. PCGS and NGC have graded approximately 60 million coins between the two companies. They have both been in business since the late 1980's. Like it or not, I'm pretty sure they are not going anywhere. You don't have to agree with them, but ignoring their presence in the market doesn't make them go away.

What? That emoticon means I'm just watching the "show"...watching everyone get their feathers ruffled by the (incessant and recurring) TPG argument. That's all.

I'm happy to tell you. On eBay, with so-so pictures, but good enough to tell that it was a stunning token. There was not as much competition as I thought there would be, and my maximum bid was significantly higher than I had to pay.

In 1797, Peter Kempson issued 10 different penny-sized tokens (or more accurately, medalets) featuring London Buildings on the obverse and "Standing Justice" on the reverse. I simply couldn't resist this Ludgate token. My pictures don't do it any favors, but it appears almost as a proof in hand. The fields are glassy and almost completely mark free, with high relief devices. Both the obverse and reverse exhibit dark hues of blues and pinks, as is common on the entire series of these particular tokens. This set of medalets was struck specifically for collectors (not intended for actual commerce), and in relatively small mintages of less than 200 of each design. The reverse reminds me of the Regal cartwheel issues of the same year, with inset lettering surrounding the central design. I have not seen a nicer example than this one, and for a scant £115, I was delighted to add it to my collection. 1797 Middlesex/Kempson's penny token, Ludgate D&H-78 (scarce, mintage < 200)

Accumulator, that is a lovely coin! I really like it. I had my eye on 3 lots in the EPN auction, but once Heritage Auctions posted the larger images, I lost interest in all three of them. Two were in MS holders, that upon close-up view were clearly AU+ (if that), while the third was in a high AU holder -- but XF at best -- though scarce. Not to mention that each of the lots of interest was already going for (IMO) too much money. Oh well, there will always be more coins...plus, my coin budget was pretty much exhausted at the FUN show.

I'm not sure if you've misunderstood my point VC, I'm not talking about oxidation in the common sense but, rather, how can it be determined that "verd" is stable just from looking at it?'Bubbling' starts somewhere, of course, but it has a beginning! How is it determined, as BRG has confidently done, that the process has ended? This is what I'm interested in! I don't believe the green spots are Verdigris at all. Thus, I don't believe they are active in that sense. True verdigris is a reaction of acetic acid with copper, and has a certain "bubbly" look to it as VS described. These few tiny green spots simply don't appear as such, and have no signs of continued reaction with the surface metal (e.g., the lustre is still visible microscopically underneath the translucent green spots).

Just out of interest, how do you determine verd activity at magnification?Verdigris usually accumulates at the surface and can be seen "eating" into the coin's surface. These small green spots are translucent, and the coin's lustre can be seen beneath them. No signs of "active" acidic verd.

==================================== 1796 Norfolk/Blofield halfpenny, DH-6B (scarce < 150 mintage) Prooflike surfaces which are very difficult to capture in images. A decent amount of red still visible in the protected areas around the devices. Both the obverse and reverse exhibit iridescence on the proof like surfaces in delicate hues of blue, pink, and gold. The obverse has a few spots, but about as nice of a strike as these come. The reverse has a large cud at 7 to 9 o'clock, present on all of the late die state (plain edge) pieces, and (in my opinion) adds an interesting charm to the token. The reverse strike is strong, with full details on the horse's head, the rider's head and sword, and slight weakness to the rider's left leg and the sword sheath (common to the issue).

I'm quite sure the green spots on the reverse are stable. I had a look at them at 10x and 20x, and there is no signs of what I would call "activity". I know it's the most common of the halfpence, but the reverse has a lovely lustrous glow to it, and I quite liked the strike of the seated Britannia. My two other copper purchases at the show were Conder tokens (see next posts) ==================================== 1792 Warwickshire/Coventry halfpenny, DH-231 (Common) Nice chocolately brown surfaces, with some hints of blue and pinks in the protected areas. The 1792 obverse has the nicest strike of the many dates, as the dies were still rather fresh. Later dates have many die crack and weakness problems (1793, 1794, 1795). I have looked at around 40-50 of this token over the past 4 years with much frustration. This one "fit the bill" so I added it to my collection.

I picked this up at the FUN show in Orlando on Friday.

It's fairly common for this kind of red toning to remain near to the devices/lettering. In the case of this token, it was struck on an extra large flan and not in a collar, so a lot of metal flow occurred, creating this particularly extreme/interesting toning pattern. Your theory is a correct one!

1795 Middlesex-Neeton's Halfpenny, DH-390 (extra large flan, 31mm) Ex Joel Spingarn Collection

The fifth coin looks like some of the silver I stored in pvc album pockets for nearly 40 years (not any more, I should add!), with a blue/green deposit caused by 'sweating'. It could just be the photos though. Accum, A quick dip in carbon Tet. will remove the green residue caused by polyvinyl sweating. Wear gloves though, it does not burn, but does absorb in the skin! If you can get hold of any. Wonderful solvent, but a no-no under H&S regs. It's fair to say that it's easier to list what it doesn't do. Carbon Tet was originally used as a parts cleaner here in the Industrial Factories, but is still available as a "coin solvent" here in the U.S., though there are warnings from the EPA about absobtion in the skin. It is risky stuff.... Carbon tet. was the cleaner of choice where I worked many many years ago. I used acetone on my old coins, and it worked fine. This side of the pond most use acetone to remove PVC. I don't think they've outlawed that yet. Strangely, some say you should "soak" in acetone, but any plastics are dissolved by a quick dip and slosh around in acetone, no benefit to leaving a coin in it for hours -- though, I guess, really no harm either, other than all of the evaporating acetone fumes.

I will be bidding on 3 lots, but I don't know if I can compete in this auction. If it is as competitive as the Newman US Coin auction, then almost everything may go for 3-5x (or more) the estimates.

Not a British coin, but one of my favorite coins in my collection. A crusty 1793 Spanish Colonial 8 Reales minted in Peru. The obverse exhibits iridescent peripheral hints of toning, while the reverse has pastels spread about. A big hefty coin in hand!