brg5658

Never heard of Pearl & Dean either... Oh well...

Yep it's mine. Also, yes, it actually says that on the edge. It was issued when there was a rumor going about that anyone caught issuing their own coinage would be prosecuted -- this particular issuer wanted to make sure that he wasn't breaking any laws.

I had to Google "Torvill & Dean"... Outside America, ice skaters don't end up in prison, so I don't blame you for never hearing about Torvill & Dean. Well, and I was 5 at the time they were "famous".

I had to Google "Torvill & Dean"...

If my memory serves me, Thomas Wyon (the elder -- diesinker of your token) was the uncle of William Wyon. The Wyon family were such a talented group of engravers that it's hard to keep them all straight. I believe they are all related in some way or another. No significance to the "XX" -- it is simply a space filler for the edge lettering that denotes the beginning/end of the inscription.

Just for clarification -- the spelling is Conder (named after James Conder), not condor (a bird). As scott mentioned, the token is a Suffolk/Bury halfpenny, Dalton&Hamer #26, my guess is that it's probably the common variety with the edge lettering of "PAYABLE AT P. DECKS POST OFFICE BURY .XX". Regarding the denomination, this can usually be told by the diameter and the weight of the token. See the article on Wikipedia with a depiction of the usual diameter of these tokens. In brief, farthings are roughly 21mm, halfpennies 29mm, and pennies 34 mm. Though, there are variations because some were struck on large flans, or without collars. Nearly all of the article on Wikipedia was written by me, and there are many good citations among the Bibliography references if you are looking for more historical context or information on these tokens. For £12 you did very well!

A sa'age Scot am I, an' partaking of nice original and unmussed wi' cunyie I pursue. Most of my coins, rather like 95% are not in those ridiculous little extruded polystyrene coffins. Note I cracked poor sot Anne out of hers and let her get a breath once the more. People have been sayin' that this or that is here to stay as a fixture of coin collecting for ages. Rather I believe plastic is an evolutional fad. See my post above with the Swedish Kristina crown. Overgraded. Some poke can think it is XF and pay such a fiendish price for it, Eventually sense always prevails. I would buy such piece at VF prices, an' not what some poke in PCGS thinks it prices at but what auction results price it at. People think price guide is a rule, rather it is a suggestion. I firmly believe the plastic game will be around as long as I'm in the hobby -- and I expect to be around for at least another 45-50 years. Besides, I was making a point of absurdity with that quote, not one of substance.

Bob, with all due respect, I think the "distraction" was when the f-bomb started flying willy-nilly as it if were an article (a, an, the). I concede, I can probably tone down my defense of the Americas... -Brandon

I have no intent to leave, unless Chris finds me "guilty" of said accusations and bans me. It seems azda has essentially given an ultimatum of "I go or he does" -- though I hope he would reconsider. Quibbles of this sort are common on internet forums, this one has just been blown all out of proportion, fueled by the particularly incendiary topic of "slabs".

All of my posts are public and viewable for all to see. My interactions with azda have been very few. Within the first week of me joining, I noticed two curt and overarching statements by azda in threads that amounted to "PCGS can't grade, American's love plastic and artificial toning". My response to those two (or maybe three?) threads was simple and to the point. I asked if he was finished grinding his axe. That's all. The second interaction with azda was in this thread where a new member asked about PCGS vs. CGS. azda in his way of painting with broad strokes replied that: "If you are intending to sell your coins into an international market then PCGS would be the better option because those Crazy Yanks will buy the slab number instead of whats[sic] actually inside, if you know how to artificially tone them beforehand you'll make a fortune n[sic] the American market." I pointed out how short-sighted and untrue this statement was. I never used vulgarities or back-handed insults, I simply told it how it was from my perspective. In his follow-up, azda himself points out that this was "twice" I had a dig at him personally. Note, twice...not the supposed "many" times over several weeks that he's now asserting. Furthermore, I don't see how disagreeing with someone is a personal attack -- it's a discussion forum, and while azda is to be entitled to his generalized and overarching opinions, am I not to be entitled to my opinions in a market where I have been active for 25 years? That's an interesting double standard. All further interaction and replies after that 2nd interaction were in response to vulgar, direct attacks on me. I addressed all in a civil manner, and left many alone as I see no point is belaboring a point with someone who has painted himself into a victim's corner. Let me note that in this same thread I pointed out to TomGoodheart that his statement regarding USA eBay was false, but this was equally so no a personal attack. It was merely offering fact and clarification. Am I also attacking Tom by the same premise? With regard to the "haters" comment I made in the toned coins thread, it was in (possibly poor) jest, but has nothing to do with azda. Many members here have expressed dislike of toned coins, and it was plural -- haters. I don't see how this is a jab at anyone specifically -- but I do see how a paranoid person could convince himself thereof. In closing, I will just state that while I may be "new" to this forum, I am not "new" to the hobby or online forums. This is the 8th coin related forum I have joined, and I have committed over 10,000 comments (and a few research articles) to said forums over the past 4+ years. I know how the "he-said, she-said" forum games works. And, once someone has cried "foul" -- particularly a more "senior member" -- the facts seem to be irrelevant. I am quite certain, a review of the facts of these supposed personal attacks will reveal the reality...if anyone cares to take the time consult them. I joined this forum because I collect quite a lot of UK coins and tokens, and there is specialistic expertise here that is not available elsewhere. =========== To azda I will simply say that no harm nor foul was intended. At the same time, I hope you realize that you have thrown just as many barbs my way as I have thrown yours. Certainly sharper (tongue) barbs. Would you not reply in an equally emphatic way if I made a comment such as "Those savage Scots love their cleaned and dipped out coins". That is the level of silliness and absurdity with which I have taken your "Crazy Yanks" and "artificial toning" jabs. I do apologize for any insults, but I am here to discuss coins. All the rest is a distraction...(e.g., the plastic game is here to stay -- whether we like it or not). Kind regards, -Brandon

I didn't even know about it! But you're right, there is such a thing. There is, but it's a bit counter-productive. What's the point of a discussion forum if all dissenting voices are ignored? After the dust has settled, I will eventually turn the feature off...I'm on holiday for the next week anyway as we have Thanksgiving here in the States.

Several weeks, eh? I have been a member here for 21 days -- so seems to be a bit of an exaggeration. azda, remember who started with the vulgar mud slinging. It was you. I have remained civil throughout all of your frustration and drama. I get that you don't like opinions that differ from your own, but no where have I personally attacked you. I have disagreed with you, sure. But, that's the nature of a "discussion forum", is it not? Further, I don't know of any of my replies that have been deleted...are you confusing me with someone else; or have you had a bad dream recently? I simply don't see why your feathers are so ruffled so as to be apparently losing sleep over an online quibble. Life goes on. Rest well though, as I've recently discovered the ignore feature on this forum, and you will have to worry no more of my replying to your posts, as I won't even have to read or see them. Cheers.

It's a lot simpler even than that - they are run by the same people! You could regard CGS as the TPG arm of LC. Am I the only one who is bothered by the fact that LC offers for sale on occasion clearly counterfeit coins? Like this Centenary Florin they sold back in August 2013. It is not only a counterfeit, but a pretty bad one.

Despite being of 'rainbow hue', I get the feeling that that coin is naturally toned. I actually like it, as the toning has clearly spread evenly inwards from the edge, which indicates storage conditions to me. A "better price from dipping" is sadly probably true, such is the prevalent ignorance of buyers and the dearth of good old-fashioned dealer advice and education. Worry not, there will be no "dipping" of this coin anytime soon. I like it just the way it is, and I don't really care if it might achieve a better price if dipped. Dipping ruins coins. By definition, it removes surface metal and luster. No thanks! Lightly dipping a toned coin, only removes the corrosion, not metal...the corrosion itself (toning) is what removes the metal.... Heavily dipping (or cleaning) a coin is another matter. I only use the term "dipping" to refer to exposure to an acid solution. No matter how "gentle" or how short an amount of time, the acid solution removes some metal microscopically, particularly at the peaks of the metal flow lines. These peaks are what we see outwardly as luster, and thus dipping actually dampens luster. I have never, and never will "dip" a coin in an acidic solution. That being said, I'm sure I own a few coins that have been dipped in the past -- I just don't want to try my clumsy luck. The only "treatment" I have performed on silver coins is to remove PVC with acetone, with a subsequent rinse in distilled water. Ah, then we've been talking at cross-purposes. When I (and many others) talk of 'dipping', we're talking about proprietary silver dip, such as that sold commercially by Goddards. That might or might not be acid based, but if so it's extremely mild, and after a 10 second dip the coin MUST be rinsed very thoroughly, then dabbed - not wiped - dry. That can expose the underlying lustre on a high grade coin with ugly toning. I've done it! and those coins which have toned back have done so beautifully. I'm not family with "Goddard's" dip, but I will have to check out it's chemical properties. Thanks!

Nope, those are die polish lines, not cleaning. All of the 1946 Luxembourg issues of 20, 50, and 100 Francs have these die polish lines. Particularly the 100 Francs coin. None of the lines go up on the devices, and are "raised" on the surface (not cut in). This is a pretty common occurrence on coins of this era. Here's the obverse of the 100 Francs coin purchased from the same dealer at the same time. No toning, but lots of die polish lines and semi-prooflike surfaces.

Here's another coin I find quite appealing, purchased from a dealer in Germany. 1946 Luxembourg, 50 Francs

1794 Suffolk/Blything, D&H 19

The Grading book linked by Tom is a splendid work. I picked it up a few months back, and it's highly useful!

Despite being of 'rainbow hue', I get the feeling that that coin is naturally toned. I actually like it, as the toning has clearly spread evenly inwards from the edge, which indicates storage conditions to me. A "better price from dipping" is sadly probably true, such is the prevalent ignorance of buyers and the dearth of good old-fashioned dealer advice and education. Worry not, there will be no "dipping" of this coin anytime soon. I like it just the way it is, and I don't really care if it might achieve a better price if dipped. Dipping ruins coins. By definition, it removes surface metal and luster. No thanks! Lightly dipping a toned coin, only removes the corrosion, not metal...the corrosion itself (toning) is what removes the metal.... Heavily dipping (or cleaning) a coin is another matter. I only use the term "dipping" to refer to exposure to an acid solution. No matter how "gentle" or how short an amount of time, the acid solution removes some metal microscopically, particularly at the peaks of the metal flow lines. These peaks are what we see outwardly as luster, and thus dipping actually dampens luster. I have never, and never will "dip" a coin in an acidic solution. That being said, I'm sure I own a few coins that have been dipped in the past -- I just don't want to try my clumsy luck. The only "treatment" I have performed on silver coins is to remove PVC with acetone, with a subsequent rinse in distilled water.

Despite being of 'rainbow hue', I get the feeling that that coin is naturally toned. I actually like it, as the toning has clearly spread evenly inwards from the edge, which indicates storage conditions to me. A "better price from dipping" is sadly probably true, such is the prevalent ignorance of buyers and the dearth of good old-fashioned dealer advice and education. Worry not, there will be no "dipping" of this coin anytime soon. I like it just the way it is, and I don't really care if it might achieve a better price if dipped. Dipping ruins coins. By definition, it removes surface metal and luster. No thanks!

NO WHERE did I say this post was about or intended just for you. Notice I mentioned a "few haters". Everything isn't about you. And, let us not forget who was the first to start the mud-slinging and vulgar/offensive personal attacks -- it wasn't me.

I'm sure this one will get a rise out of a few haters. LOL

I have collected for 25 years, all that while in the American market. I have owned 1,000+ graded coins from NGC and/or PCGS, and many thousands more that were raw. I have regularly attended shows, and followed all major auctions in the USA for the past 5+ years. It is simply not true that we worship plastic and grade labels as an entire country of collectors. Further, your obsession with disavowing the occasional rainbow-toned coin in plastic is massively over-emphasized. Most TPG-graded coins sold in the USA are properly graded by our Sheldon 70-point scale, and the proportion that are mis-graded is far less than your comments would lead one to believe. You will notice that I don't have strong (and vulgar) opinions of the CGS and UK coin grading market -- mostly because I prefer to only chime in on topics for which I have sufficient experience. Where I do feel I have seen enough to be informed is to say that LondonCoins is someplace I will not purchase from. The quality is simply not there, not to mention the handful of clear counterfeit coins they sell but seem to not care about. So, what are your "credentials" -- since I don't know you from Adam -- enlighten me. Because, all I've seen here on this forum is your incessant regurgitation of anti-American collector sentiment. Almost every post you make here is judgmental and negative. How am I to perceive who you are besides from your replies here. Cheers.

Really? You clearly don't follow the Asian and Australian markets then...as collectors in those two realms also place quite a bit of emphasis on reputable TPGs, including PCGS and NGC. This little bit is juvenile at the least, and frankly misleading. I will not reply to this claim directly, other than to say that I hope Mynki understands the statement is a feeble attempt by the poster to dig in his anti-American claws just a bit deeper. Having nearly 6,000 posts on this forum doesn't make someone infallible, so take the comments of azda cum grano salis. Thats twice you've had a dig at me personally. If you have a fucking problem with me the spit it out. I'm not a Fan of American TPGs or a Fan of how the AMERICANS make more of an emphasis on the slab number other than the coin inside. You saying "you won't reply to this claim directly claiming its feeble is a freaking joke also as you did reply to it, but my reply was to the OP and not to you so if you Chose not to reply to it i personally don't give a flying f**k. I also don't follow the Australian or Asian market. Now, if you dislike my dislike of how the Americans collect a slab other than whats inside then please don't f*****g comment on my reply. NUMPTY Your comments are massively over-generalized and outright false. Furthermore, you clearly have no experience in the American market, so I don't think you are qualified nor do you have any business making such ill-informed generalizations. I was merely amending your unjustified and uneducated assessment of the American market. I think your use of profanity speaks volumes; if one is truly knowledgeable in their field (i.e., has evidence instead of just stories), then there is no need to be so dramatic and vulgar. Best to stick with what you know -- that apparently being the UK/European market. I did'nt realise you have to be qualified to have an opinion. Here in the EU we have a Freedom of speech. Here's my opinion, go fuck yourself you cock You can have all the opinions you'd like, that doesn't make them reality. The OP was asking for advice. When offering advice, I prefer informed opinions. My opinion of your advice is that it is ill-informed. I have every right to that opinion just as you do to your opinion. For the rest of your issues, I will merely state that you may want to consult the newly released DSM-V.