secret santa

Can a pattern also be a mule.........?

I've just had a look at my own coin photos and I can't really see the difference (between circulation and proof coins) in the helmet plumes/feathers that you mention.

I had actually considered starting a new topic called "when is a mule not a mule ?" as it probably shouldn't be hidden away in a topic about 1926 and 1927 pennies.

Calm down, dear - just the 1926 ME "mule" !!!!!!!!!!!

We're probably talked out on this one now ???

Mules A mule, is a coin where the obverse and reverse of the coin have been struck from dies which were not meant to be paired together; this can be an intentional action or a production error. The latter error becomes highly sought after and collectors can be willing to pay highly for examples of these coins. I relate to Mike's view here - how are we to define "meant to be paired together" ? In 1902, which reverse was "meant" to be paired with the Edward VII obverse - High Tide or Low Tide ? And does that make the other pairing a mule ? There is a degree of subjectivity here and to me it is not clear how we can know when a die pairing was "not meant". We are talking about perhaps one person's intention or vision of what obverse should be paired with a particular reverse, which may never have been made explicit. On my varieties website, I shall continue to not refer to the 1926 ME as a mule (if users consider it "an appalling error" then so be it). The 1926 4+C is probably more of a pattern (for the 1927 coinage as described by Chris) than a mule and I'll redescribe it thus.

I've just checked and I'm sure that it was part of the Trevor Legge collection in Dec 2014.

Well spotted Mike, I'll correct this asap. Interesting how different photos of the same coin can look different.

I have now relabelled this reverse as a possible sub-variety of reverse Gouby d/Freeman C to avoid the confusion that you mention (which I should have spotted since I also wrote the penny appendix in the new Freeman !) and also because I don't think that there is sufficient difference to call it a different reverse type - it may be simply from a "sharper" proof die. Thanks for pointing this out.

Can we explore this "mule" situation further. I've looked in Peck, Freeman and Gouby (albeit in a fairly cursory manner) and found nowhere where any of them refer to the 1926 ME as a "mule". Have you deduced that "All ME bronze was intended to be introduced with a modified reverse" or is that documented somewhere ? I'm looking for clarification, not a fight.

When I set it up I tried to call it headsntails but the spurious 14 crept in from somewhere and I couldn't find a way in Wordpress to correct it so it ended up with a really clumsy URL.

Corrected - thanks for pointing these out Jon - always happy to receive constructive comments. There are bound to be other typos in there.

It's me !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

When someone has spent many hours of their own time constructing a website that will hopefully be useful to fellow collectors it might be more constructive and diplomatic to avoid describing part of its content as an "appalling error".

So, they struck one coin correctly but thousands of "mules" incorrectly ? Not sure I agree with that Chris !!!!

Don't hold your breath.

I have spoken to Michael Gouby re this coin and he is 100% sure that it is an inverted A. He says : "The centre "A" bar is clear and solid. A tiny bit of the 'foot' of the inverted A can be seen just above the left leg of the 'V'. The 'I' of VIC has also been double struck. I am lucky enough to have taken an enhanced scan of the whole of the word VICTORIA. Richard, if you want to post this picture or my comments on the Pre Decimal website – feel free to do so. I am sorry that I don't seem to have time be active on the forum but I am always willing to help with any question that I can answer. Here is Michael's photo:

I'll start another thread devoted to the 1860Jb (V over inverted A) to avoid confusion.

In fact, I've just emailed him this minute.

I can see what you mean Pete. I wonder if Michael has the original photo ?

I hope you don't mind me putting your coin up on my rare penny website - I'll take it off if you wish, but devoted collectors like myself are very keen to see pictures of these very rare coins. I always put "private collection" when I haven't had permission to quote the owner's name or if they wish to remain anonymous.

Totally honest and reliable.

Interesting thought - if I can get through to a human, I'll try it.

Fedex consistently charge 20% - it's no mistake !!!!! And I've found reclaiming it to be impossible.

For pictures of known 1933 pennies, see my rarest penny website below