Colin G.

Peter, I am starting to think the same, I have had more things go astray by recorded delivery than not by recorded delivery, there must be a postie somewhere with one hell of a collection!!!

R over A and Y over F I just dont see it, all I see are obvious die flaws!!

Can anyone else see the overdates or do they see die cracks/flaws like I do 1866 Farthing And to make matters worse it has a bid!! I find this type of auction so frustrating, someone is in for a harsh lesson!!

Peter, What is your role in construction? I am a Building Control Surveyor.

Maggie, If you do a search on lauer on ebay or in google, you should get plenty of images to compare with.

Yes, the seller definitely gets a pat on the back for integrity in that transaction

I wonder which one is worth the most?

Peck also mentioned that the rocks could be struck up very weakly. My TB farthing has the tips of the rocks to the left of the lighthouse as found on the BB rev. showing and it looks as if the large rock was cut over these which were weak in order to reinforce the design. There are clear remnants of the two highest rocks sticking above the large rock. Given that I have a reverse showing both features, there is nothing to say that the large rock didn't appear until the beaded border dies were safely under lock and key as we are looking at a short period of time in 1860 when the transition was made. I think it is perfectly feasible that you could find a piece that had been touched up. If I thought everything had been found that there was to find, I'd give up and do something else. Consider the BB 1860 1/2d. It took well over 100 years to realise that there are two reverses. One is short hair/wide date and the other is long hair/narrow date. In the middle of December, Chingford sent me a picture he had for appraisal comparing 2 1860 reverses. The first thing that struck me was the combination of short hair/narrow date which I hadn't seen before. There is always something new to find. Conventional wisdom and statements of fact reflect the conclusions that have been drawn in the past, not what remains to be discovered, so sometimes it is necessary to think outside the box whoever made the statement. Considering the above paragraph and having disproved Peck's statement that a ball on the trident shaft of 1806 halfpennies is an infallible way of identifying proofs, I am more than willing to accept the possibility of an unrecorded reverse design. And would I spend £400 going against conventional wisdom? Yes if I believed I were right when all things were considered. Rob, I also know from past experience that facts stated in Peck and Freeman are not always correct and are as you say a snapshot of varieties known at that moment in time. I also agree that there are a multitude of varieties that have not yet been identified, and as you say I would also call it a day if this were the case. However the fact still remains that you need solid eveidence of a variety before you can verify it to exist and just because a coin does show certain teeth to be beaded in shape I would not consider it to be identified as a mule. If this were the case there would be a multitude of mules out there, because I have seen many TB farthings that have had that feature. This is the case with many toothed border farthings, and it is only when they start to wear around the rim, that the clear "toothed edge" appears. If you put Gary's images side by side, the borders are very similar on both sides, with the exception of the top left of the obverse which displays this rim wear. As you say without the coin in hand and possibly out of the slab, individually we will never know. Would you gamble "Yes if I believed I were right when all things were considered", and so would I, but when all things are considered on this particular coin I would not take that gamble, and my advice to others would be the same.

Now, I guessed that it was an Odv 3 from the 5 berries, 2 has 4 and the wavy hair over the ear. I agree it is an Obverse 3, and I am also intrigued what does moot mean? I have provided a link to an FAQ page on my site which details the different obverses and the images are all stacked, so it makes comparison easy. Different Obverses

You're going to wish you hadn't asked this! Despite my use of it in the previous sentence, I think you should strike the exclamation mark after 'change' in the second line; you have one later on in the paragraph and overuse of exclamation marks just doesn't look professional (sorry, but that's my opinion). Agree that the second sentence needs a little more, as it rather ends in mid air - how about adding something like: 'which can make them worth treble/quadruple/ten times/whatever their face value'. You will also need to switch the word 'colour' in the 2nd line of 2nd para. i.e. 'actual-size colour illustrations'. The only other adjustment that you could make (and this sounds picky) is to end the third paragraph after 'books' with a colon. Otherwise fine. Do I get a free copy? Red, My posts must look very amateur because I know I over use exclamation marks all the time, my site is full of them!!! (oops done it again!! )(and again )

"Just from examining these points, I am very hesitant to absolutely conclude that this is a mule, although I find it somewhat difficult to believe that PCGS would get something as simple as this attribution incorrect.... but that may be exactly what happened.... " Gary please do not think I am a merchant of doom or have anything personal against grading companies, but I remember this earlier thread on this forum N over E 1844 Half Farthing This was another slabbed coin that was definitely incorrectly attributed, and I think this is one of the clearest error overdates there is, so they are certainly capable of making the mistake. It is also interesting that Spink currently have an 1844 half farthing for sale on their site and have made the same mistake!! I think the case you are stating is correct, and as you say the slab itself may be distorting the image around the edge of the coin. You could always e-mail Colin Cooke's and see what there opinion is.

Rob, Peck decribed the reverse of the 1860 BB by the distinctive rocks to the left of the lighthouse, as did the late great Colin Cooke. Every Mule I have ever seen has had the three rocks present and by the scarcity of the variety I would not consider it feasible that there is the possibility of 2 different mule varieties one of which has never been seen before. The beaded border style is surrisingly different in that all of the beads are individual and placed on a flat area, whereas the toothed edge may have some teeth that are separated but is not consistent on every tooth. The 0 in 1860 is another area where the variety can be compared, the 1860 Beaded reverse has a gap between the 0 and the linear circle and a marginally smaller 0. You may be correct in that there could be a type of Beaded Border farthing with a single rock, but would you realistically gamble £400 on the possibility when every specialist source/reference book states otherwise. Believe me when I say there is nothing I would have liked more than to say to Gary that the piece appeared correct, and I get no pleasure from saying otherwise, but from a collector to a fellow collector I have to give my honest opinion, and would appreciate people doing the same with me in similar circumstances.

Sorry forgot to log in!!! The previous post was me!!

When I originally e-mailed the seller, I did say that it appeared that a single rock was present, and that if 3 rocks existed to the left of the lighthouse it would confirm this to be an original, and I was interested in the item. Because I never had a response from the seller after the e-mail, I decided to make the post to the forum to try and give people my opinion. I provided the seller with links to 2 separate websites with which to compare the coin. From the images I saw I still currently stand by my opinion although from the images it was by no means 100% clear. and if the coin does turn out to be a mule, Gary you got a bargain!! I await the verdict with anticipation!!

Ouch!! that is one expensive 1860 TB farthing!!

The rocks to the left of the lighthouse was the factor I used in determining the authenticity of the item, and this is what I explained to the seller. The single rock is clear on the larger images, but I am hesitant about posting someone elses images on a forum. If you ask the seller for the images, I am sure they would send them to you.

Josie, I know how you feel, I was really unsure about what to do with this item. Do you ignore it and let people bid on something that is not what it appears to be with the view that it is buyer beware. The problem with that is that it is a lot of money for someone to invest into something when it is not what it seems. I sympathise with the seller because they are stuck with the item and the error is not theirs. I sent a polite e-mail to the seller stating my view and explaining the features that are found on a beaded border reverse and referred them to the coins in Colin Cookes collection and the comparisons on my site. I even offered to put something in writing if they did want to take the issue up with the grading company. I am not interested in trying to bad mouth sellers and I have no problems with this seller who has been courteous and efficient in their response throughout the process, and I have to admit if I was in their position I would probably treat my e-mail with a bit of suspicion and would want to check it out before deciding what to do, but I feel as a member of the numismatic community that I should advise people of my opinion. I also would not put this opinion forward unless I was sure of my comments.

Yes it is still for sale. Mule

As for the O in Oarolvs, I am not convinced that it is an "O" . If you look at the O`s in CAROLO these are more oval in shape, where as the O in Oarolvs is almost perfectly round. How about a misaligned C being overpunched with a correctly aligned C with no attempt to correct the underlying misaligned C? If you closed the gap in the C in CAROLO then it would be as good as round!

I used to love the old text RPG games on the speccy!! I remember the Hobbit well!! It was when you gave commands like open door and it would say "do not understand open" so you type unlock door only to get the message "do not understand unlock" and so on and so on, many a happy hour spent inputting 46 words for open try and find the one that had been programmed, and adjusting the volume on the casette recorder to get the game to load..... Load"" (I think that was the correct command) Those were the days!! Colin G.

Hi, Can someone provide me with the freeman numbers for the fractional farthings from George V, Edward VII and the Victorian Bronze series please? I am having difficulty locating my copy at present, I know I put it somewhere safe!!! Many Thanks Colin G.

Can I have my 1p in farthings please!!!! (Preferably pre 1895) Colin G:

Thanks for the responses!!! Colin G.

The worrying thing for me, is that looking at the website I am not filled with confidence. The wording on the site is poor, and there are a multitude of grammatical errors. Whilst I do not claim to be the master of grammar myself, I do not think I would trust my coin grading with a company who cannot spell or present coherent sentences on their site!!! The other worrying factor, is that you know this is going to take off in a huge way regardless of how we feel, because it is not aimed at collectors, but at the investor. I just can't see myself searching bags of 2006 pennies to find that grade 100 penny even if someone is willing to pay £100 for it because it says that it is perfect on the slab. One thing it is certain to do, is increase the price of coins across the board if it is succesful. Colin G.

Can anyone recommend a good publication that details the coin manufacturing process. I know Peck and others touch on the subject, and I am aware of the basic processes, but I am after something that discusses in detail how the process evolved and how dies were repaired etc. Is there such a book that anyone is aware of? Many Thanks Colin G.