jelida

Hmm, interesting idea, but as the dies were heated in an oven slowly to over 500 C, then cooled slowly before they were worked, I can’t see that an uneven anneal is likely, and the mint workers are very experienced at this sort of thing. The sea/waves on the master die/punch should all be engraved at the same depth and I think it unlikely they could be struck on the slant, which is why I think the sea would either be entirely present, or entirely absent with that scenario, and unlikely absent in part or on both sides of Britannia as is sometimes seen. I wonder what effect a convex planchet surface would have? Could that be a cause? Unlikely again, as the blanks were punched out of rolled strip. Jerry

Nice coins. I presume you bought them , Pete? Well, if proof dies are affected , then re-working of damaged dies is not the issue here, nor should die wear be as quality control was much more strict than for currency coins. Grease is certainly widely used for rust prevention of ironwork in storage, and probably even more so in the days before central heating and environmental control. But any fluid, even thin machine oil, would prevent a clean strike if trapped between the die/ planchet surfaces. Poor working die manufacture by the strike from the master die/ punch being of inadequate depth might give this appearance though would be surprising for a proof die, and I would have thought the depth of the sea cut into the die would be pretty uniform and thus the presence or absence of waves would be rather ‘all or nothing’. Examples where high points on the coin are affected as shown on the Heritage blog show that die fill did occur, and that fill does not have to be solid, just incompressible as liquids are, including grease. During the strike grease, like the metal of the planchet, will move and it is perhaps not surprising that it gets pushed against the inner rim as the alloy is forced down into the rim recess in the die, cutting off its escape. Grease trapped elsewhere might cause impaired letter strike, reduced high points etc perhaps giving the impression of a worn die. Can we prove grease as the cause of absent waves beyond doubt? Perhaps not, but affected proofs likely rule out some of the other possibilities. Jerry

That depends on whether it can clear the die during the instant the strike takes, which will depend on its viscosity and escape route. I’m sure it usually did clear within a small number of strikes, exiting on the coins struck and around the collar, but in the meantime as an incompressible fluid it could have left its mark. I have been using an excavator clearing ditches and putting in drainage and gate posts over the past week, and the forces that can be exerted by pumping a few litres of hydraulic oil around never cease to amaze me. It’s not surprising that a covering of grease could prevent full die contact with flan. Filled die remains a potential issue to this day, apparently, if dies have been grease coated for storage. There is a lot on the net. Heritage show some nice examples. https://blog.ha.com/2019/07/something-is-missing-filled-die-errors/ I have no problem with the appearance of these coins being due to die grease (or indeed other foreign material). Jerry

Personally I’d just cover them with a generic description page, clearly they are not a true die variety and could presumably occur with any date, especially if a grease-clogged die is the cause as suggested. Jerry

Take away the correct ‘I’, and I don’t think much persuasion would be needed that the horizontal was an erroneous ‘I’ partially closed in by locally working the die. As the die maker will have had an ‘I’ punch in hand, it just seems more probable an error to me. But as so often in our hobby, there is likely not a definitive answer. Decent high magnification photography might give clues. Jerry

Could it not simply be ‘I’ over horizontal ‘I’, with the horizontal ‘I’ on the punch partially closed in before the correct letter was struck? I appreciate it is difficult to tell from the photo, but that would be a practical explanation and beyond doubt were the horizontal letter an ‘N’ or an ‘A’. Jerry

That’s a really neat find, despite the condition. It’s nice to know there are more than one out there! Jerry

I think Bramah was writing in a time when the idea of ‘privy’ marks on milled coinage was widely accepted, as the 1897 ‘dot’ penny. I would consider the mark below the ‘T’ to have some other, non deliberate, origin unless it could be definitively proven otherwise , which is unlikely now. I don’t know of contemporary Victorian forgeries that would require differentiation from genuine by a privy mark, and die studies were openly undertaken by die numbering or lettering. Jerry

Sadly my attention has just been drawn to it 😆 . What a lot of cut and paste rubbish! Why do these people think yards of pointless text enhance the sale of their pointless tatt! EBay should charge by the word, might speed up my internet connection ☹️. Jerry

I really wouldn’t be worrying about that yet, Mike, give it another week or two. It’ll be sitting in a great pile with two men at the bottom deciding whether to apply duty. The wait here is often longer than the transfer from the USA origin address. But if it doesn’t appear by the end of the month, post pics. Is it worth making this post sticky? It may well resurface from time to time. Jerry

Many of his other items for sale also cause concern, especially the artefacts, and are typical Eastern European fakes. Looking at his sold items, if he can happily sell supposed ancient silver rings set with intaglios etc for £20 to £30 then he must be getting them for bu**er all and not be at all worried that they don’t realise what a genuine example should. Couldn’t run a genuine business like that. Jerry

It’s absolutely a B over R, if this isn’t one then none are! It is the diagonal of the R that shows within the lower loop of the B and extends outside the loop to meet the R, exactly the features described in Gouby and now Freeman. Jerry

This is fascinating stuff....are these varieties collectively published somewhere? If not, can they be........? I know Richard has his excellent web pages, but this level of detail is superb, and really merits a book. Jerry

No problem...thanks.

Looks like it’s based on this type of portrait penny of John, but different moneyer and mint. https://www.fitzmuseum.cam.ac.uk/collections/coinsandmedals/78186 But it looks a ‘wrong un‘ to me. I’ll be interested in what others think; if genuine it would have been grossly undervalued. Jerry

Please. I would dearly wish to be able to take my own...... Jerry

I have started this thread to allow forum members to record, with photos, coins that have gone missing, perhaps lost or stolen in the post, perhaps pilfered at a meeting or from the house, with the intention of alerting fellow collectors and possibly facilitating recovery should the lost coin re-surface in a future auction or sale list. The eventual recovery of a coin could also feature. The first coin is an 1858 small date large rose penny, purchased as a 'Buy it Now' from Northern Ireland on August 25th. Sadly this is now some two weeks overdue, and likely lost in transit by Royal Mail, though I still retain hopes that it may arrive or be returned to sender. Sellers pictures. Jerry

It looks as though I may have lost a rare penny now 2 weeks overdue posted in the UK, I will post its pics for your site Richard in due course. However I wonder whether we shouldn’t have a dedicated topic on this site in which to post pics of these coins and a short history of the loss. This would alert other collectors and might aid claims or litigation for return should the coin turn up in the future, as rare coins tend to resurface at auction or on dealers lists eventually. Recoveries could also be subsequently listed. If members consider this useful, I will start the topic with my coin. Jerry

I’m with Paddy here. I looked at it too, and thought it looked like a blob of corrosion, especially in the slanted picture. And Lukas has a long history with this sort of thing. Jerry

What on earth is this? Some sort of Chinese knock-off, I presume. https://www.ebay.com/itm/Great-Britain-1898-One-Penny-Bronze/224143734971?hash=item343001f8bb:g:ppYAAOSwENVfUsAK Jerry

Here it is. https://www.jncoins.co.uk/Shop/pennies/626-george-v-bronze-penny-1926.html Jerry

Don’t be tempted...I’ve seen this coin for sale recently at several grand, this guy has just stolen the pics. https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/1926-ME-Penny-George-V-Uncirculated-NGC-MS-63-RB-Extremely-Rare-F-195/333710807341?hash=item4db2b6d12d:g:F-4AAOSwUKRfU67~ Jerry

“R&B” is likely “Roberts and Belk“ silversmiths of Sheffield. Jerry

These are “pseudo hallmarks “ on silver plate, not official hallmarks. Some can have meaning, for example the “S” may refer to Sheffield, and the “R&B” will be the manufacturer but others are simply ornate. Most Sheffield plate has marks similar. This seems a good reference; http://www.silvercollection.it/dictionarysilverplatepseudohallmarks.html Jerry

This knackered 1862 B over R in BRITT that I was bidding on was pulled today, presumably for an off EBay sale. I am not too aggrieved, as I have one nice one and two other poor examples but it is so annoying when it happens! https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/One-Penny-1873-and-1862-England-Queen-Victoria-S-SS-/283985223175?item=283985223175&ViewItem=&nma=true&si=7jacaEOIZzM%2F9i4INN2leXJtvjs%3D&orig_cvip=true&nordt=true&rt=nc&_trksid=p2047675.l2557 One for your site Richard, and I have one yet to photograph. Jerry