jelida

I have no sympathy for the bidders in this case. The vendor, if a little clumsily, does make it clear that this is a base metal gap-filler. People really must read the descriptions. I doubt they will get their money back in this case. Jerry

That’s nice guys. Well done both.😋 Jerry

That’s wonderful. I was born in the Shetlands, spent my first six years on Fair Isle where my dad was the warden of the bird observatory. I have never been back, despite fond early memories. I must remedy that. Jerry

Buying it themselves, possibly. This coin, https://www.ebay.com/itm/KREMNA-in-PISIDIA-Authentic-Ancient-Amyntas-Galatia-King-Greek-Coin-ZEUS-i77184-/233193738940?_trksid=p2047675.m43663.l44720&nordt=true&rt=nc&orig_cvip=true sold and feedback received, is for sale again https://www.ebay.com/itm/KREMNA-in-PISIDIA-Authentic-Ancient-Amyntas-Galatia-King-Greek-Coin-ZEUS-i77184/352659299993?item=352659299993&pageci=eb59148d-ed8e-4fb0-b683-4b9f13f596bb&redirect=mobile so all is not as it seems. Jerry

From its appearance I would be suspicious of a cast coin I’m afraid. Let’s see what others think. Jerry

“If real” is key here, there are more fakes than genuine of these about. http://rg.ancients.info/owls/forgeries.html For a start, we need much better close-up photos. These pics are the sort of quality associated with less reliable EBay sellers. Jerry

Ah, but it is back...... https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Victoria-1-Penny-1863-Genuine-Proof-Grade-EF/233219981496?hash=item364cfe80b8:g:SsgAAOSwajRc0YoC Jerry

Number of lifetime sexual conquests, and partners satisfaction rating? Or so I’m told, obviously! Jerry

These weak strikes and worn dies are often an issue for my pennies too. In terms of actual circulation, I feel the amount of real wear is likely to be indicated by the better side, in that the general effects of circulation (“shove ha’penny” and local damage aside) should be symmetrical. I would agree that in terms of wear the reverse of your coin is AU to MS. Logically in terms of wear the obverse will be similar. Of course the sharpness of the strike is always a factor in the overall desirability of a coin. Jerry

I also had emailed DNW, and at the Midland Coin Fair Chris Finch mentioned it and reminded me (I had forgotten). They had taken the issue up with the vendor, it seems he was aware of the doubts and had been ‘trying it on’ rather. Anyway they had agreed to withdraw it, quite correctly. Likewise was a little surprised at the lack of an email acknowledgment though. Jerry

Well done, not my field but a useful addition to the corpus of knowledge. Jerry

It is the same for me, but the prolongation that seems inevitable does increase the opportunity for things to get out of hand and perhaps a bit too bitter. I agree that tolerating and respecting our differences is essential, but there have been a number of heated exchanges over the months (years?) and I hope these don’t threaten the integrity of the forum as a whole. It has been absorbing (in a horror movie sort of way) watching the parliamentary process progress- or not - but in this forum, where we should be pulling together in our love of numismatics, I do worry that we are learning a bit too much about each other and getting a bit too emotional for comfort. Jerry

It is madness. And there is another dealer on the USA EBay site who has hundreds of slabbed common uk coins at similar prices, many artificially toned (which seems to pass muster with the slabbers). Is there really a market? Talk about the fool and his money.... Jerry

I am beginning to doubt the wisdom of continuing this thread regarding such a divisive subject, particularly as the issue seems set to drag on for months if not years, and not just in the context of my spat with Peckris, but of many other heated posts over the months. This is a coin forum, yet this thread is setting member against member, and there is of course no particular right answer, only opinion , which is often unedifying. What say you all? Jerry

No. The dispossessed working class northerners were about thumbing their noses at the Westminster elite, which is what many Leave votes were about.

Chris, that is a separate sentence moving on to another point, and not quoting you, but referring to a “popular remainer conception” ie numbers of people that I, as others posting, have heard clearly expressing these sorts of ridiculous views. Do I detect a hint of paranoia here? You have chosen to mis-interpret my comments, and then wilfully ignore my previous rebuttal. At no stage was I quoting you as calling leave voters ignorant, and I pointed that out above. However my first comment that you hi-light does refer to your written tendency to put the ‘working class’ leave vote down to general dissatisfaction with government of all parties, and the desire to give them a bloody nose, rather than being a rational decision , based on intellect (the same, on average, as remain voters) and available information (also the same access to the media ) in the background of their real life experiences (job security, immigration pressures on services, housing etc as mentioned before). That is my criticism, the point I made and have just repeated, though the reasons people vote in a certain way are of course multifactorial, and it is perhaps not wise for me to state why a remain voter should vote that way, though I might have more empathy with and understanding of the motivations of a leave voter. Jerry

I would be suspicious too, it has that soapy dullness of a high nickel alloy and you should not get bright green verd on a sterling silver coin. There are many replica early Victorian silver coins cast ‘pre-worn’. Jerry

Where has this come from, Chris? I actually quote you as saying ‘dispossessed ‘ in my first paragraph. Unless in quotes, the rest of the missive is in my words, and without knowing you I would never accuse you of being one of those who consider leave voters being somehow less than intelligent and rational. But I have heard it said by remainers that I know, who feel a leave vote is somehow less valid than a remain vote, by the nature of the people who voted that way. I of course would never make such a blanket accusation. Though I have of course noted that remain voters arguments overwhelmingly revolve around anxieties over national and personal wealth, ie economy and trade, and far less about the right of the majority to make decisions, for better or for worse, which is of course what happens at every general election.🤐 Jerry

For over 30 years I worked and lived in what you might describe as a “dispossessed working class” community, albeit in the South Wales valleys, and a strongly labour voting constituency and leave voting . I drank in the local pubs and my best mates included a plasterer, postman and power station worker. Europe was a frequent topic of conversation , often heated, but generally in negative terms for many of the reasons outlined above. When it came to the referendum I never once heard the view expressed that they would vote to “thumb their noses” etc, and I suspect they would be insulted to be told that was their motivation. You seem to deny the “working classes” the ability to come to the same reasoned decisions with the same access to media as the rest of us, which ever way the individual verdict was. It seems a popular remainer conception that the outcome of the referendum was determined by a protest vote by the ignorant, despite the “working classes” having exactly the same average IQ as the rest of the population. And in terms of sovereignty, I said “issues of national sovereignty “, I did not say lost sovereignty, though we have undoubtedly become subservient to the European Court and to a significant extent to the European Parliament, two of the main pillars that determine self determination. Jerry

But why put it off? Cameron was on a high, having just had a reasonable victory in the General Election. He , like most cosmopolitan south easterners, had no concept of the dissatisfaction of the majority with the machinations of the EU and despite having just been shafted in his attempt to get concessions from the EU he had put a gloss on the outcome that he thought the population would swallow. There did not seem to be any advantage in delaying, and nor would there have been. The target of settling the EU issue within his party was understandably irresistible. And the chattering and political classes knew a remain victory was inevitable. What he, like many, did not realise is that national wealth and economic success is less important to the psyche of most of the population of the country than perceptions of housing and work competition from working class Eastern European immigration. Almost un-mentioned in the debate also were issues of national sovereignty, self determination and democracy which in the absence of the concern for the international economic arguments are felt very strongly amongst rural and working class communities. I think that despite the parliamentary debacle very little has changed, the polls give a remain majority of exactly the same level as the day before the referendum (10% according to the net) and we know where that led us. Cameron did not have a crystal ball (or possibly any balls at all as it turned out) but his decision will have seemed entirely logical. Jerry

True, but the latter made most of their millions from the private sector. Mr Kinnock left his job as an MP to jump on the EU gravy train (joining wife and son, as stated) and was soon owning million pound properties courtesy of the taxpayer. https://www.walesonline.co.uk/news/wales-news/campaign-highlights-kinnocks-10m-eu-2100178 He was even the subject of this article in Walesonline, the on-line presence of the left leaning Western Mail newspaper in 2009. Can’t really blame him though, he and his family only took advantage of the system, but it is difficult to see how all three ended up with top EU jobs without some behind the scenes influence. To be fair Kinnock in private was a likeable man; as leader, he once spent an afternoon in our practice along with our then MP ‘Pink’ Paul Murphy, on a ‘fact finding’ exercise. He didn’t learn much from me. But he did strike us with his ability to listen, humour and sensible open discussion. Not like the pontificating windbag he came across as in public. Jerry

I see, I mostly use an iPad, and you can enlarge the pics and clear the thumbnails. I will try my pc later. Jerry

Yes, this new style of thumbnail seems to have appeared in the last few days, you can still enlarge to get the full picture but it is a pain if you just want to scan the lists. Jerry

There is one issue in replying the way Peckris does, and that is if you try to respond by quoting the annotations, you find you are quoting a blank page. I appreciate there are “copy and paste” ways around this, but from a simple quote and reply point of view it is a nifty way to end the conversation. Jerry

But our discharge of the ‘Sick man of Europe’ tag was very little to do with membership of the EEC and everything to do with nearly two decades of Conservative government under Mrs T and Major, following a decade of largely inept government (of both colours) which allowed unregulated and strongly left wing unions to cause disruption throughout manufacturing and other industries in their efforts to prevent modernisation and efficiency savings which might just have allowed said industries to remain competitive. As a result we lost most to other countries which had modernised. It certainly took over a decade for the country to re-focus, primarily on the service sector where we are now. And I can remember inflation peaking at 15% in 1992, after nearly 20 years of membership, during the ERM debacle when the main though not only factor that triggered the instability with regard to the agreed parameters was high German interest rates caused by the costs of German reunification . Britain was not the only country affected, and 10 months later European monetary policy rules were relaxed; I suppose the point I am trying to make is that membership of the EU is not and will never be a financial panacea, there is too much regional disparity even within the Eurozone, and the situation with Spain, Italy and Greece is far from resolved. It is true that the EU would not be unhappy if we exercised our right to rescind article 50, but for our parliament to override the democratically expressed wish of the population is unlikely and highly risky. And the EU have made it clear that a no deal may be preferable to them than further years of indecision. Jerry