jelida

There’s your answer, Peter! They hardly circulate, but are still required for some transactions. Jerry

This vendor seems confident in identifying the ja reverse variety on a Freeman 72. Maybe. https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/1874-PENNY-F72-rev-ja/273847142732?hash=item3fc28fc94c:g:JekAAOSwpcpc3BYk Jerry

But even then the absent ‘H’ could be due to die fill. If it wasn’t for the unique (for 1882) die pairing, would we be so confident with the agreed ‘no H’ variety? The couple of ‘no H’ 1876 are generally accepted as die fill. I suppose a reasoned judgement published by a top expert , a Freeman or Gouby equivalent, would have to be the determining factor in the absence of contemporary records. Jerry

Yes, that was the main indicator of the doubt, and what DNW didn’t seem to get to grips with at first but I think Chris does now. I think that whatever the (historic) cause of the dishing of the flan below the date, the end result is the removal of the ‘H’. It looks to me like a coin that may have been in the ground at one time, and when cleaned on recovery a thin layer of patina was rubbed off, along with the mintmark. But I have seen several ‘no H’ with the wrong obverse offered for sale, including by LCA. What would it take, I wonder, for this combination too to be considered a true variety? Jerry

Chris Finch of DNW asked me to look at the 1882 no H penny at the MCF yesterday. There is no visible evidence of the ‘H’ under the loupe but I also felt it was a little ‘dished’ under the date. No recent shenanigans, but as it is one of those coins that has considerable surface patination it is quite possible that the ‘H’ might have been lost. Either that, or a filled die, as the obverse is clearly ‘wrong’ for the ‘no H’ as we recognise it, though I don’t know that can be entirely written in stone. My advice was that if they do try to sell it, an explanation of the reservations about its authenticity would have to be included in the description, then the punters can make up theit own minds. Not one for me. The links can be found above. Jerry

I have no sympathy for the bidders in this case. The vendor, if a little clumsily, does make it clear that this is a base metal gap-filler. People really must read the descriptions. I doubt they will get their money back in this case. Jerry

That’s nice guys. Well done both.😋 Jerry

That’s wonderful. I was born in the Shetlands, spent my first six years on Fair Isle where my dad was the warden of the bird observatory. I have never been back, despite fond early memories. I must remedy that. Jerry

Buying it themselves, possibly. This coin, https://www.ebay.com/itm/KREMNA-in-PISIDIA-Authentic-Ancient-Amyntas-Galatia-King-Greek-Coin-ZEUS-i77184-/233193738940?_trksid=p2047675.m43663.l44720&nordt=true&rt=nc&orig_cvip=true sold and feedback received, is for sale again https://www.ebay.com/itm/KREMNA-in-PISIDIA-Authentic-Ancient-Amyntas-Galatia-King-Greek-Coin-ZEUS-i77184/352659299993?item=352659299993&pageci=eb59148d-ed8e-4fb0-b683-4b9f13f596bb&redirect=mobile so all is not as it seems. Jerry

From its appearance I would be suspicious of a cast coin I’m afraid. Let’s see what others think. Jerry

“If real” is key here, there are more fakes than genuine of these about. http://rg.ancients.info/owls/forgeries.html For a start, we need much better close-up photos. These pics are the sort of quality associated with less reliable EBay sellers. Jerry

Ah, but it is back...... https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Victoria-1-Penny-1863-Genuine-Proof-Grade-EF/233219981496?hash=item364cfe80b8:g:SsgAAOSwajRc0YoC Jerry

Number of lifetime sexual conquests, and partners satisfaction rating? Or so I’m told, obviously! Jerry

These weak strikes and worn dies are often an issue for my pennies too. In terms of actual circulation, I feel the amount of real wear is likely to be indicated by the better side, in that the general effects of circulation (“shove ha’penny” and local damage aside) should be symmetrical. I would agree that in terms of wear the reverse of your coin is AU to MS. Logically in terms of wear the obverse will be similar. Of course the sharpness of the strike is always a factor in the overall desirability of a coin. Jerry

I also had emailed DNW, and at the Midland Coin Fair Chris Finch mentioned it and reminded me (I had forgotten). They had taken the issue up with the vendor, it seems he was aware of the doubts and had been ‘trying it on’ rather. Anyway they had agreed to withdraw it, quite correctly. Likewise was a little surprised at the lack of an email acknowledgment though. Jerry

Well done, not my field but a useful addition to the corpus of knowledge. Jerry

It is the same for me, but the prolongation that seems inevitable does increase the opportunity for things to get out of hand and perhaps a bit too bitter. I agree that tolerating and respecting our differences is essential, but there have been a number of heated exchanges over the months (years?) and I hope these don’t threaten the integrity of the forum as a whole. It has been absorbing (in a horror movie sort of way) watching the parliamentary process progress- or not - but in this forum, where we should be pulling together in our love of numismatics, I do worry that we are learning a bit too much about each other and getting a bit too emotional for comfort. Jerry

It is madness. And there is another dealer on the USA EBay site who has hundreds of slabbed common uk coins at similar prices, many artificially toned (which seems to pass muster with the slabbers). Is there really a market? Talk about the fool and his money.... Jerry

I am beginning to doubt the wisdom of continuing this thread regarding such a divisive subject, particularly as the issue seems set to drag on for months if not years, and not just in the context of my spat with Peckris, but of many other heated posts over the months. This is a coin forum, yet this thread is setting member against member, and there is of course no particular right answer, only opinion , which is often unedifying. What say you all? Jerry

No. The dispossessed working class northerners were about thumbing their noses at the Westminster elite, which is what many Leave votes were about.

Chris, that is a separate sentence moving on to another point, and not quoting you, but referring to a “popular remainer conception” ie numbers of people that I, as others posting, have heard clearly expressing these sorts of ridiculous views. Do I detect a hint of paranoia here? You have chosen to mis-interpret my comments, and then wilfully ignore my previous rebuttal. At no stage was I quoting you as calling leave voters ignorant, and I pointed that out above. However my first comment that you hi-light does refer to your written tendency to put the ‘working class’ leave vote down to general dissatisfaction with government of all parties, and the desire to give them a bloody nose, rather than being a rational decision , based on intellect (the same, on average, as remain voters) and available information (also the same access to the media ) in the background of their real life experiences (job security, immigration pressures on services, housing etc as mentioned before). That is my criticism, the point I made and have just repeated, though the reasons people vote in a certain way are of course multifactorial, and it is perhaps not wise for me to state why a remain voter should vote that way, though I might have more empathy with and understanding of the motivations of a leave voter. Jerry

I would be suspicious too, it has that soapy dullness of a high nickel alloy and you should not get bright green verd on a sterling silver coin. There are many replica early Victorian silver coins cast ‘pre-worn’. Jerry

Where has this come from, Chris? I actually quote you as saying ‘dispossessed ‘ in my first paragraph. Unless in quotes, the rest of the missive is in my words, and without knowing you I would never accuse you of being one of those who consider leave voters being somehow less than intelligent and rational. But I have heard it said by remainers that I know, who feel a leave vote is somehow less valid than a remain vote, by the nature of the people who voted that way. I of course would never make such a blanket accusation. Though I have of course noted that remain voters arguments overwhelmingly revolve around anxieties over national and personal wealth, ie economy and trade, and far less about the right of the majority to make decisions, for better or for worse, which is of course what happens at every general election.🤐 Jerry

For over 30 years I worked and lived in what you might describe as a “dispossessed working class” community, albeit in the South Wales valleys, and a strongly labour voting constituency and leave voting . I drank in the local pubs and my best mates included a plasterer, postman and power station worker. Europe was a frequent topic of conversation , often heated, but generally in negative terms for many of the reasons outlined above. When it came to the referendum I never once heard the view expressed that they would vote to “thumb their noses” etc, and I suspect they would be insulted to be told that was their motivation. You seem to deny the “working classes” the ability to come to the same reasoned decisions with the same access to media as the rest of us, which ever way the individual verdict was. It seems a popular remainer conception that the outcome of the referendum was determined by a protest vote by the ignorant, despite the “working classes” having exactly the same average IQ as the rest of the population. And in terms of sovereignty, I said “issues of national sovereignty “, I did not say lost sovereignty, though we have undoubtedly become subservient to the European Court and to a significant extent to the European Parliament, two of the main pillars that determine self determination. Jerry

But why put it off? Cameron was on a high, having just had a reasonable victory in the General Election. He , like most cosmopolitan south easterners, had no concept of the dissatisfaction of the majority with the machinations of the EU and despite having just been shafted in his attempt to get concessions from the EU he had put a gloss on the outcome that he thought the population would swallow. There did not seem to be any advantage in delaying, and nor would there have been. The target of settling the EU issue within his party was understandably irresistible. And the chattering and political classes knew a remain victory was inevitable. What he, like many, did not realise is that national wealth and economic success is less important to the psyche of most of the population of the country than perceptions of housing and work competition from working class Eastern European immigration. Almost un-mentioned in the debate also were issues of national sovereignty, self determination and democracy which in the absence of the concern for the international economic arguments are felt very strongly amongst rural and working class communities. I think that despite the parliamentary debacle very little has changed, the polls give a remain majority of exactly the same level as the day before the referendum (10% according to the net) and we know where that led us. Cameron did not have a crystal ball (or possibly any balls at all as it turned out) but his decision will have seemed entirely logical. Jerry