terrysoldpennies

Welcome to the Forum Adam , or should I say the mad house , don't be scared to put your !!Two Penneth in !! [ excuse the pun ].

But it's Rumoured that Macron might veto an extension.

It does really depend on what type of tank you strap onto your back, if you use a Centurion tank it helps you get to the bottom really quickly.

I thought that to , it says all major details clear !! Round top lighthouse - Prominent square rock under shield , I don't think so

This widest date 1908 type is mentioned in David Grooms Bronze book, but its the first one I've personally ever seen , its just a little wider than the reverse D which has the one in the date to the gap, but this being the reverse C has the 1 in the date to the tooth. I don't know if its to be found paired with obverse 1, does anyone have an example ??

Well thanks Pete , I have been looking for years to find this one.

Well that's an obverse 1 yes Ian, but as Pete says a 1908 1+C F164 with the wide date, as my example is a 2+C F165.

I'm Getting Tide of all these silly jokes

Thanks Mike that's interesting , so his 1944 wide date example had a light finish to. Now I wonder which is most common the light or the dark. ??

One possible explanation is that F160 that we assume was probably released first, was not initially released in the UK, but that they may have been shipped to one of the colonies early in 1905 using the old 1904 dies . The location they were sent to may have been somewhere that few bothered to put aside a batch of uncirculated coins , and that sometime later in the year the new reverse die came into use, with the bulk of the release going to banks in this country , the dealers and collectors would then have put aside the newly released penny, unaware that the earlier penny released abroad was in any way different to the ones that they had put away. Shipments to the colonies were probably sent out early in the year so as to be available during the year actually stamped on the coin , and we must remember that in those days it took quite a time to ship the coins around the world.

Misuse of the word scarce perhaps on my part, what was meant was that the 12H was scarcer than the 12 and its the other way around today with there being more 12Hs than 12s.

I do think your right in that the supply of rare unattributed coins will gradually dwindle as there's is a finite number of coins to be discovered , As to collecting though I think that as the kids of today start to bore of internet games the same media ie the internet will actually in courage more people to take up collecting again.

One thing that must be taken into account is that the F164a was not discovered until after the recall of all the pre decimal coinage , and that means that none were syphoned out of the vast numbers of the 1908s still in circulation back in 1967. This disproportionate survival rate of known scarce and rare types can be seen with the 1912 and 1912H , as when I was young in the 1960s the 1912s were really common, but the 1912H was scarce, but if you look on e-bay today there are far more 12Hs than 12s due I think to the hording of 12H and the 12s being withdrawn and melted down. I would personally think that the F164a is as rare as R15 ie 101 to 250, this judged by the numbers turning up and the prices they attain. As you say more are coming to light all the time, and its down to the internet , and the high quality of the pictures now available to us making them easer to spot. just my opinion but I think that they are just a little rarer than the open 3 ,

To me it seem there are only three ways in which high grade examples survive 1 That somebody in 1908 or any other year stored away a batch of brand new examples which then at a later date ended up in the hands of collectors. [ if this had happened to the 164a you would have expected many examples in high grade to be in circulation between collectors and dealers. This I think must have been the case for the F14 LCW under foot, of which there are many high grade examples, also I believe with the 2* which I surmise was part of a test run using this die that were never released into circulation, but that a small batch was smuggled out of the mint. This would account for all of the examples found so far being of a high grade, 2 That an odd example is taken out of the country in loose change, and being of no use in that country sat in the back of a draw for many years surviving almost unworn 3 and the odd example or two that was lost at or around the time of the production, and survived at the back of a draw , or by falling through the floorboards, or some other such way. These lost coins that subsequently reappear would I think be what happened to the odd 164a and the Hollow neck and open 3, though not in the case of the F169 , as I personally have never seen an example better than good fine.

Don't you mean a modified '' EARFFIGY''

http://www.predecimal.com/forum/topic/11024-forum-groups-ranks/ Have a look at this link.

I think its a 2+g F20 like you Jerry The obv. 5 normally has a long in cursed cut fold at the top of the outer ribbon which narrows towards the knot. There also seems to be a very faint signature under the bust on this coin, and not totally cut away as on the obv. 5

I let you into a little secret about that find. it was on E.bay and cost me £8 but here's the thing, it was a really bad picture and was listed as a 1903 not a 1908.

The point really is that if you and the rest of us on here cannot be sure of the type, then that's also how all potential buyers will see it. With rare types, the type indicators must be clear on the coin or it will not be taken seriously.

A close up of the narrow 3

Have a look at this one. https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/1909-Freeman-169-Dies-2-E-A-Strong-VG-with-Major-Details/401797925690?hash=item5d8d05cb3a:g:hloAAOSwsUBdFT53 F169 2+e ????

I know what you mean Jerry , with Victorian Pennies there really are thousands of different minor variations and we couldn't possibly classify all of them as varieties , but like you if a cheep unusual example comes my way, i do go for it, oh and i Promise not to try and sell you one for big money

I would agree with your assessment Richard , and to add to that, if another A had been used it would probably leave a doubled bar across the A . This would not be the case if as we surmise an inverted V was used. I think we might be winding Jerry up again , but to me this is all very interesting to work out just how some of these type were formed.

I think its just swings a roundabouts , the country is in the shit at the moment, what with everything up in the air with Brexit . Have faith it will probably bounce back and with prices low its a good time to buy.

I would think them to be about as rare as the 1903 open 3 Mike, but there are a few really top grade examples around unlike the open 3 .