terrysoldpennies

I think its a 2+g F20 like you Jerry The obv. 5 normally has a long in cursed cut fold at the top of the outer ribbon which narrows towards the knot. There also seems to be a very faint signature under the bust on this coin, and not totally cut away as on the obv. 5

I let you into a little secret about that find. it was on E.bay and cost me £8 but here's the thing, it was a really bad picture and was listed as a 1903 not a 1908.

The point really is that if you and the rest of us on here cannot be sure of the type, then that's also how all potential buyers will see it. With rare types, the type indicators must be clear on the coin or it will not be taken seriously.

A close up of the narrow 3

Have a look at this one. https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/1909-Freeman-169-Dies-2-E-A-Strong-VG-with-Major-Details/401797925690?hash=item5d8d05cb3a:g:hloAAOSwsUBdFT53 F169 2+e ????

I know what you mean Jerry , with Victorian Pennies there really are thousands of different minor variations and we couldn't possibly classify all of them as varieties , but like you if a cheep unusual example comes my way, i do go for it, oh and i Promise not to try and sell you one for big money

I would agree with your assessment Richard , and to add to that, if another A had been used it would probably leave a doubled bar across the A . This would not be the case if as we surmise an inverted V was used. I think we might be winding Jerry up again , but to me this is all very interesting to work out just how some of these type were formed.

I think its just swings a roundabouts , the country is in the shit at the moment, what with everything up in the air with Brexit . Have faith it will probably bounce back and with prices low its a good time to buy.

I would think them to be about as rare as the 1903 open 3 Mike, but there are a few really top grade examples around unlike the open 3 .

There seems to be other differences . in the picture below, the top two are both F160s, one with a small o the other the large O and with both of these the 5 is almost centred over the tooth , also both have a normal length tail to the 9. Whereas on the F161 [the bottom date of the three] the 5 is centred over the gap between the teeth, and seems to have a 9 with a shorter tail.

I do take your point Richard , but don't under estimate your own input into all of this, as you were responsible for the updates in the latest Freeman , and you after all gave the 2* classification, and many see you as one of the leading authorities on penny varieties, so using the H* for clarity would I think be useful especially as many now turn to your site for information.

Ja Scream at me if you think i'm wrong, but wouldn't it be a good idea as this is a well known established type, with a Gouby classification to give it a Freeman type , such as an H* so as to end some of the confusion .

All 1875 Rev H [Freeman] pennies are Ja the J is on the 74s

There seems to be one other difference between the J and the Ja I have noticed and that is to the top of the gown across her left shoulder and out along her outstretched arm. On the J there are some deep folds running down across her arm , but on the Ja the folds are almost non-existent which as you can see on the worn example I have shown lead to an almost straight line from her neck to her outstretched arm, albeit with a slight dip in the centre. On the J though the line across the shoulder is broken by darts of the folds even clear on the worn example. First two Ja second J

Pete I personally think that the first one is just a worn example with an over exposed photo . As to the others I would tend to agree with you that they've probably been cleaned. But as we know, photos can be so deceptive .

Sometimes a weather shot turns up quite unexpectedly and you just have to be quick with the camera, just as this did over my front gate a couple of years back.

Photos certainly can be very deceptive, and I was concerned as to whether it had been cleaned or not, but in this case it was fine and the appearance is identical to the other bright finish coins of the other years around it in the collection, though there is some very slight toning . I my experience cleaning coins never brings the whole serface of the coin back to a brand new mint finish , as they frequently look patchy ,and also often leaves the edge around the legend and teeth looking slightly darker in tone. Natural toning may also be responsible for the loss of some light finish coins , as distinguishing the difference between them and Hypo coated coins is made more difficult.

I read somewhere on the forum that there is a ratio of about 6 to 1 so very scarce in high grade.

I received this in the post this morning. I bought it because I thought it to be a 1944 bright finish with the wide date and recut waves. I waited for it to come in so as to be sure, and it does appear to be the bright finish type. Does anyone know if all of the wide date type were bright finished or were most darkened as with the standard date width type.

Hoovering SUCKS full stop.

An interesting point Pete . The only thing that comes to mind is that this was at the height of the great depression, and that maybe they were experimenting with different alloys or darkening processes so as to save money on the more expensive metals, the half penny was still being produced in the bright finish as normal.

Because of a change in the metal content mixtures due to the War . Page 63 The Bronze Coinage of Great Britain . Freeman

There not that rare Mike , I had a count up of the 1940s pennies put away by my mother back in the 1960s, there are 86 Double and 12 single . that's about 7 to 1 . that proportion my have changed due to hoarding of the single type

It is hard to find a decent one, this is the best one iv managed to find so far i picked it up about a year ago, not as nice as RIchards though.

Have you seen this. https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-6882583/Former-appeal-judge-says-legality-Brexit-extension-tested-court.html