terrysoldpennies

Nick, are the bronze coins in the set Cameo. Terry

I bought this 1953 penny last week , it was described as a Proof, but after some research came to the conclusion that its what the Americans call a Cameo. Well, that's what I consider it to be from all that I have read . After all, it is a Proof, but it has a matt finish to the detail on the coin , but the field is highly polished. Its known and documented that Bright finish and Matt finish coins were made in 1953, but as far as I am aware , not so this two tone type. Richard and I both knew nothing about them, hence this post by him, well is this just a description of the contrast between the different surfaces, or should we always describe this twin type finish on a coin as Cameo. Also as far as I can tell, of all the pre-decimal bronze pennies produced for 110 years this so called Cameo finish was only ever used in 1953. I believe this type was only made for VIP sets, and have no idea as to its rarity. Below are the three types of finish found on a 1953 Penny. If you can tell us more, please let us know. Terry

Hi . Welcome to the forum Martin, The first coin could as you say be a weak strike , but it could also be the result of a worn die , which would result in a loss of detail . The second coin looks to be a die crack, this is uncommon on modern coins, but was very common on early Victorian coins , Improved quality of the dies , resulting from the better types of steel now used in the manufacture of the dies. Terry

I've had a good look at the picture on page 41 in Goubys BP 1861 AA . The LCAs example has the same faint arc to the left of the 8 , which seems to continue through the lower hole at the bottom of the 8 . No sign of this line continuing on the Gouby example. It also differs in that the hole at the top of the 8 is smaller , and the first 1 in the date is slightly rotated anticlockwise . Its possibly the same die, at a different stage in its life , but I think its hard to be certain . I've probably not helped much. Terry

In my opinion it could be either , 8 over 6 or 8 over 8 as such , I wouldn't by it . Terry

I don't know, you just can't get the staff these days !!!!!

Hi Dicky. welcome to the forum . The 1861 penny, as with the 1860 - 62 pennies have a wide variation of date widths , as indeed so do a good number of dates throughout the bronze pre-decimal period of production, but during these first thee years of production the variations in position of the last digit seems to be almost infinite , as it can be found up to far, down to far, rotated , and in distance from the 6. Because of this, Its thought that the last digit was punched onto the die by hand. I show a few examples of this below Terry

Welcome Ian , I'm Terry , not much use to you though as a penny collector, but post any interesting things you care to talk about anyway.

On the face of it I can understand you feeling that the number of teeth/beads is insignificant ,as it shows little on the overall appearance of the coin , but that's not the whole story. Taking Pre-Decimal bronze pennies,[ my passion ], in the 107 years of mass production of circulation type dies, there were only 19 obverse, and 13 reverse pennies with differing numbers of teeth/beads. [as yet found] . Usually the number of teeth/beads changed with the changing of the image or font . But not always . In some years, notable 1860 1874 1908 1911 and others multiple changes were made to the number of teeth/beads with little change to the image or font. This would suggest that The Mint was trying out different dies for the next generation of pennies, and with only small amounts of them being released into circulation. It follows that most of the one year only tooth/bead die types are scarce or rare. This obviously is a minimal visual change, but significant in terms of the sequence of the dies used. These changes were deliberate ,and not made by error or chance, so must be part of the Historical sequence of die experimentation in coin production at the Mint. Terry

I started collecting with my mother in the 1960s , and managed an almost complete year set of bronze and copper back to George lll with nearly all brass and silver of the 20th C . Though not all in great condition, I did manage to find a 1951 penny in circulation, all be it a wee bit bent. After starting to collect again after a break of forty years, I found myself drawn to the pre-decimal copper and bronze pennies , mainly because of the diversity and shear number of varieties to be found, all of which were made accidently , or by trying different designs for there attractiveness or the durability of any one type of die. None of these though, were created by the mint with the sole intention of make money from the public collecting them. The creation of scarce types almost every year now, is deliberate to encourage their removal from circulation. Also the hunt for that elusive undiscovered type is real fun for me. Terry

Mike the D in FD on a Freeman 2 points to the Gap. on the 3 its to the tooth . except for the 2* which is to tooth. Terry

well this one LONDON COINS Listed under COINS FOR SALE 1860 freeman 2+d slabbed as joint finest , but its a 3+d PE.V1 1860 15 http://www.londoncoins.co.uk/?page=retailv2_details&uin=0007716

Here's another one. Terry

Ian , I came across this in my library of old pics , its not very high resolution , but it looks the same as yours. Terry

Hi Cliff , Dave suggests in his book that the cause of this is the re-cutting of one or more digits, probably due to die fill or damage to the die , and that makes sense as doubling on one digit only crops up on many different years. I have a 1946 penny with a doubled 1 in the date , but I also have a 1961 penny with the complete date doubled, but I think this my have been caused by juddering of the die during manufacture . Terry

Nothing on my coins Ian .

I'm not brilliant with computers, but I have found that Ebay remove the purchase history of a transaction if it has been taken to resolution , and that all the purchase history is removed after 60 days. What I tend to do if I see something interesting ,is to right click on the sale item , and then save it in favorites , and this still seems to work for up to 6 months. Terry

I wonder if they were not made for photographic use, but are just the result of a sand blasted die , as I see that they both seem to have a soft image , and not the crisp look of the proof like examples of other years ?. Maybe other examples will turn up. So if any of you have one , please let us see them. Terry

Richard , I spoke to you some time ago about my possible 1953 121 tooth matt finish penny, its below. Terry

Yours is slightly different Richard as the under A shows to the Left of the A. My one is on the right hand side. Yours my be a third Rev die combination . Terry

I must confess I don't collect variations on the copper pennies [as yet] concentrating mainly on the bronze, and on the unlisted date variations , which I think you have an interest in to. I bet there are quite a few unknown ones we have found between us . Good luck in your quest. Terry

Pic 2

No Ian , I knew mine was not a Bramah 2C, and it is not the same die before the botched repair on the F in DEF . Two differences on the reverse are clear, the E in DEF on the Bramar 2C is rotated anticlockwise, mine is not, and the A in BRITANNIAR on my coin is Doubled ,which I can see no sign of on the Bramar 2C. Terry