DrLarry

Oh dear what can one say ? in 30 pages it outlines that such cases may get some public response and I can remember all the cases in question other than the old man that camped out in his shed to protect some old tools who fired through a hole a 3 feet off the ground without knowing who and what he fired at. the question is a road statement if 85 % of the poll represents 85% of a poll or broadly 85 % of the whole population. Mr white had no duty to protect anything other than his home and his family neither were at threat .... why on earth would anyone think that the judiciary favour the criminal ....it just makes no sense. They may acknowledge that two crimes are not equal, to remove the right to life simply because a burglar is removing the right of ownership of a bike is a bizarre and archaic notion

in describing "courage" perhaps the definition based on overcoming fear . I have no insight into the mind of a burglar from a psychological point of view but I can surely bet a judge might have a better overview of the psychology of crime than many would. it does take quite a lot of time to become a judge. Sure they a maybe clumsy in wording at times but usually context is everything and point scoring by David Cameron is likely a distraction from the austerity that resulted in underpolicing. Politicians say whatever they need to say to appeal to that proportion of the public they require at any one time.

I have just read through all 30 pages of the link you added and I am not sure what you think it says. As I read it it outlines the complications between criminal and civil law and the confusions that arise from the human rights issues of the two parties the homeowner and the Burglar. It looks at a number of key cases that have received disproportionate newspaper headlines and campaigns to increase the rights of homeowners to no avail. In all such cases the law remained constant in its approach examining each case on its individual merits. In each case the legal issue under debate is the one of "proportionality" did the homeowner take proportional or disproportional actions to "keep safe" his home. In each case it mentions it found that disproportionate force was applied. At one point a judge quite clearly states that the homeowner has no right to chase the perpetrator down the street and then stab them as he is no longer protecting his home or family against the trespass . In this case (Mr White) several intermittent steps were realised in the action. A decision to get out of his safety of his home. A decision to consider the chase, a decision to start the car, a decision to speed chase with the car, a decision to "ram" or a failure of control"lose control on a bend" a decision to attempt to cause bodily harm. The moment the police arrived he himself remarked something along the lines of "i think I may have done wrong" I am sure you will correct this . Other than to outline the difficulties in such cases the article or paper does nothing other than to equally recognise the actions taken by the homeowner and the intent of the burglar. By breaking into a garage with bolt cutters and stealing the bike the burglars entered into a space not intending to cause harm to the homeowner and the family but to attempt what they saw as a simple act of stealing within common law. Surely just one step up from the "trivial crime of shoplifting" . I may have the story wrong so correct me if I have PLEASE, but I have heard nothing of confrontation and attempt to cause harm. Mr white reacted (as many might ) by disproportionate actions to get back his property. In the face of these cases a poll might well initially have a high popularity rating but in time once the "excitement" has gone ...I am not sure these stats would stack up. Statistics are terrible indicators of reality in polls. We are extrapolating out from a poll of how many? where are the statistics collected? how are they analysed? in other words they are , if ever , an accurate reflection of the general public. 100% of 12 listened to the evidence and decided a verdict of guilt or in the worst scenario 7 out of 12 a majority verdict decided his action was disproportionate. these figures do not illustrate 85% in favour. They are after all just the general public randomly selected. The only question here is then passed to the judge to determine sentence. The court of appeal if it goes there will focus on the judges verdict they may , as mentioned in the article decide to reduce the sentence and suspended for 2 years. One other factor is that the go fund me page was closed down by the administrators who said they had enough and would donate the rest to charity.. Does that mean that they do not intend to appeal the case?

I am maybe not quite "clued in" but thus far apart from Channel 4 ( which I respect greatly for news) I have not heard anything about this case on Radio 4 . Ok that might suggest I am of a certain demographic maybe just a boring old fart but it has served me reasonably well since a child (perhaps old before my time). Of course that does not mean that it is not important just that the debate as yet has little editing and content value. But I grew up around violence and working class ethos ( which certainly does not make me proud) so it isn't totally detached from my background thinking how certain newspapers generally react , in the end their purpose is to their own significance in the world and to sell after all they are a business. I am almost 60 now so I dont come from the post war generation, I am not a child of the 60's although born into them. I have good tertiary education . Hence I would not say I fit into any definition. I dont think I am a "bleeding heart liberal " or left wing socialist and certainly not conservative. Sure I am at heart European as well as enjoying a sub label of English. I DON'T find any reason why I would be only part of 15% who think the sentencing reflected the circumstances (as they have been presented) but then again I rarely use social media so perhaps herein lies the schism.

career criminals start some place ....maybe with shop lifting

I am not sure there is much more to add. I am not sure what out is , we dont have a continent available to dump prisoners on unless we build space prisons or make use of old oil rigs...having been on a few of them they feel a little prison like at times. I suppose we work on a principle that once a person serves their "time" they have paid for that particular crime...the hope is that it rehabilitates but sadly wholesale cuts to prison rehabilitation has been pretty destroyed by increasing numbers and increased time spent locked in cells and cuts. All these ideas of custodial sentences rarely get us to a better point. Tagged and on licence saves the system hundreds of millions a year I am sure....I am unsure what the answer is all the things that people complain about eg like a TV in each cell all are the result of cost cutting exercises and an attempt to keep prisons under control. There are simply not enough staff to provide for all these sectors of society that require the staffing whether that is prisons , police, nurses , Drs , care staff , education or service and hospitality there are many reasons why all of which I am sure we all know. The quality of services in all these now is so poor. The answer in the public sector is to increase taxes dramatically and pay for them. I am fine with that but many wont be.

I assume , not knowing the laws penalty on stealing a bike this was all the legal system allows. Was it aggravated are armed burglary? harm done only to property , chargeable in that instance as a minor crime and as has been suggested 200 hours of community service may have been based on a consideration of the state the prisons are in in terms of being able to house two criminals. I can only assume their past criminality that judgment was based on the evidence. I think the interest in this case has been driven by headlines. I do not think that the evidence of the wife aborting the baby because she feared the cost implication with the husband away was an after trial event and really had no role to play in anything other than the story line it is a very sad aspect of the case but legally not relevant. That is not to reflame the discussion just a point playing a role in the back story. The thing is the law can only deliver a sentence appropriate to the crime. The events after i.e the car chase and the Mr White aspect would not have been admissible in their trial.

on this I would agree a suspended sentence would have been a better resolution from an outside point of view it is hard to know why this was not the case . a suspended sentence usually is made if it is a first offence and the emotional forces driving the crime are not part of a repeated experience. We are led to assume he had no prior convictions or points for traffic or driving offences.

it is most likely easier to agree to disagree. For you to contribute to is legal fees. I acknowledge your arguments and appreciate your position. It is good to have such debates and I have enjoyed the discussion. We don't have to agree either way there are lessons to learn from the topic and the incident itself. It will detach me even further from any desire to protect property and it acts as a warning not to act in anyway that causes harm. So it has taught me valuable additions to my own experiences in life. I work often in high stress threatening situations at work in the Townships in Sub Saharan Africa and often we see violence and for the sake of property. I would only ever intervene to protect those children I work with I would forcefully inhibit anyones "desire" to cause harm with a big stick or place my body in between the perpetrator and those in my care. I would be upset for the kids in the projects and those in the future involved if someone stole my collection as it does provide a legacy to the charity. But would I protect it beyond a certain limit ...no certainly not if it caused me harm or my dogs. in the end it is just bits of flattened metal with pretty pictures on it, bought with other bits of paper versions of the same. Karma will sort it out at some point when she feels fit.

it would seem that you are strongly of the belief that Mr White should not have been given a custodial sentence. Of course you have right to believe that as will many others. Some may feel that the legal system did its duty with the evidence presented. We are unlikely to agree on this issue and on the other issue of police deaths those are cases aside which presumably are investigated and if in the end a policy of non chase becomes practiced then no doubt that will also be seen as yet another bias in favour of the criminal But it will be based on the weighing up he risks posed by that action verses value to the public to apprehend. I cannot say which will win out . I brought up police chase simply as a way of comparing Mr Whites skills verses Police pursuit skills . He is likely to have done it once in his life and is judged on that basis.

well it is my prerogative to type a couple of lines as I choose fit.... interim or otherwise .

no at the time I had not read the article I ws simply informing you of that

sadly yes I think chase is a complex issue ...if the police consider anything I am sure they weight up if the chase is warranted i.e the criminals may do more harm if not apprehended . Listen I dont agree with many things the police do but those in cars do at least have some training

yes sadly it does but there is often driver error and sadly some people die as a result and in the case of error such cases may go to trial

I am sorry I do not know the context

but he was not on a journey to Lidl to buy croissants he was in a high speed chase which he could "not control" lose control at a bend. It is just a fact in this case that he was not trained in high speed pursuit. Over what distance did this chase occur? What speeds were registered? the collision would have provided factual evidence along with witness and other evidence

but the fact is evidence shows he lost control and as such could have lost control at any point killing someone else.

well obviously that is what the jury decided not me

but I , like you, am a member of the public.....I would hope that no actions would be taken if reasonable force were used. if he were armed with something other than his arms (although they too can kill the old lady) anyways it is hypothetical , some rights are lost ( the right to freedom) but not 100% his right to life

that was his legal argument I am assuming , but there is no doubt a car is a weapon in all circumstances if misused

well you are "trying to get my head around it" and yet I am not convinced by it . It seems a little conspiratorial in its underlying nature that a randomly selected group of individuals listen and carefully decide on the facts....not on the emotions.

it might not be in the public interest but the rights of the dead man still have to be considered ....even if he should not have been there. and it would very much depend on the nature of the killing in self defence

But a car is a weapon in the hands of an out of control driver any number of people could be killed randomly

that is a moot point...the issue of injustice hence in our own small way this debate . the law can consider duress as an emotional driving force. But the clear issue here is "reasonable"

but you argued it would not go to trial. There would have to be a trial a crime has been committed . sure the judgment might be that the 85 year old lady would not likely be a threat to society but a trial would still take place