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DrLarry
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Everything posted by DrLarry
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YOUNG HEAD SOVEREIGN strangely I seem to have more of the rare unreeded variety #40c one type has COUNTER in exergue #400 and 400a. reeded. The second type have NURNBERG in exergue #401 I dont have either of these so please list if you have. The a third variety with the date 1887 in exergue. I also do not have the "gold" varieties of the shield sovereign but strangely seem to have one unlisted in Rogers. Similar to #403 but strangely it is SILVER. So I am looking for #403 and 404 #400a #400c plain edge
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there was a seller in Serbia selling a few ut they were $50 each I found one a year or so back but I would like a set too but I can wait LOL
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it is always a loss when records disappear in disasters natural or otherwise just leads to silly old fools like me making speculatory statements LOL
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I did not know that. I saw on a couple of websites that they were still making pretty poor quality tokens into the 1930's. The Victorian ones were by far the best and the "special relationship" between Britain and Germany must have made selling to the UK market much easier. I often ( well not that often) come across small bags filled with various denominations all of the same grade and wondered if the making up of the boxes took place at the agents and shops? I am sure you avid collectors of real coins would know more about the process but I have to assume they used some kind of reduction machine to cut the dies? I have heard you guys mention that by the 1880's the royal mint used them. I think I have seen one in action in an old film from the 1920's showing the method of transferring from a large plaster model to a smaller dimension for the positive impression which is then reversed for the die.
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LAUER Coins When I First discovered one of these time replicas 6 years ago I was at first surprised by the excellence of the design and then fascinated. So I began a 5 year journey of discovery ( sounds like the opening of star trek) to find as many as I could. I still cannot find a great deal more on the Factory of L CH Lauer in Germany and even though I have searched in the german pages of E Bay little or nothing much comes up. I assume Nurnberg Germany must have been a little like Birmingham was in the Victorian periods turning out small metal objects. Does anyone know of any research other than that mentioned in Rogers?
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24 Hours in Police Custody
DrLarry replied to secret santa's topic in Nothing whatsoever to do with coins area!
agreed -
24 Hours in Police Custody
DrLarry replied to secret santa's topic in Nothing whatsoever to do with coins area!
yes I am afraid my experience of prisons is that they are full of people with prior mental health issues. I know many see the mental health angle as a gift to anyone and everybody but I am afraid to say the reason why anyone and everybody says it sadly is that it is a realism rather than a gift. I live in a very deprived area and experience the impact on the lives of young people around me from parents who are themselves victims of their own histories. The North East , like so many has had long term underfunding and removal of almost every piece of funding that might have offered a help line. Budget cuts just see a saving and ignore at their peril the long term impact of community breakdown. It is a shame that people cannot go fund youth services locally with Go Fund Me pages. I am not a great lover of humans but I do think you have to give young people opportunities or else the crime becomes an easy option. Effective treatment of offenders requires a lot more people with a lot more patience in well run community services and true the victims too need support. I have a horrible feeling at the moment that systems play on division as a distraction one group fights another....It feels like the 70's again at the moment which was an ugly bleak miserable time. I have both Durham Prison and Franklin prison down the road so always aware of how miserable life is behind bars. I do feel something for the home owner but it is very easy to go beyond self protection. -
24 Hours in Police Custody
DrLarry replied to secret santa's topic in Nothing whatsoever to do with coins area!
isn't a large part of this due to the long long wait periods on remand before the CPS even have enough court space to hear the case? -
24 Hours in Police Custody
DrLarry replied to secret santa's topic in Nothing whatsoever to do with coins area!
I also did not watch it , and I am assuming the laws that were broken are laws that could not be changed because there is a sense of injustice in them. As mentioned the brain might not be thinking too well if just woken up angry and threatened but sadly the law can consider these circumstances but cannot alter too greatly from the reasoning behind that law even in a legal system based on precedent . I really am not sure if for the sake of property or pride it is worth pursuing someone and again it's that aspect of law that says if a person is fleeing from the place of crime they are also doing all they can to remove themselves as a threat to the homeowner. Perhaps these kind of events result from the inactivity of the police to attempt to solve crimes which results from political under funding in the last 10 years and pre-occupation of police to spend months going through millions of phone accounts as part of seeking new tech evidence for crimes . When people see no outcomes their frustrations float towards vigilantism, but it takes years for police high speed drivers to learn the skills to take up these pursuits. The law would say if he set out with intent to harm no matter what the reason he set out to cause harm . Both are wrong you would think some of it would cancel out. But damage to body is a more dangerous crime than burglary with no intent to harm. you must tell us if our views do not match the circumstances -
The Prince seems to have had quite a lot to say on the matter and I am surprised when presented with the models and drawings a choice was made not to do something NEW with Britannia. For me (personal opinion) the Britannia on the SOHO coins makes a lot more sense . Ships sailing in from the right are coming from the west and the prevailing wind directs the sails . The Foot and legs of Britannia outstretched are reminiscent of the west Country and the shape of the British Isles matches the shape of the Britannia. the ship sailing home ...with the W Wyon Britannia I have often wondered why the ship seems to heading towards Norway up to the east with the wind blowing from the the North West. Britannia looks on waving her trident because the ship sailed seems to have missed her. It is fun to speculate why these kinds of questions were not considered. I suppose they were if the whole maritime supremacy thing is part of the written story of the penny design. Perhaps you are right and the queen was more interested in her portrait than the story playing out on the reverse. Don't get too serious ....speculation and counter speculation helps keep news or fake news alive
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Dec 7th 1859 went to osborne to sketch for the new Bronzes Dec ( worked on the model ) Dec 16th Osborne House sitting with the queen She and the Prince "much Pleased" The queen gave him a phot0 of herself. March 27 1860 went to Buckingham Palace Queen and Prince Consort criticised the likeness for the new penny .... "I made a rough sketch of queens profile which which she was pleased" March 30th Buckingham Palace "few trifling criticisms" gave him another long sitting for a pencil outline . June 20th Saw pennies and half pennies being struck then on July 4th there is an entry which says "Bad news today The Queen wishes the portraits on the new copper coins to be altered. July 21 received a letter from Mr Graham concerning the bronze coinage which I fear may stop our Journey "(holiday) July 21st to Mr Graham. Obtained permission to leave town on score of ill health. Worked till very late in the evening on the half penny die The he went on HOLIDAY for a month. there then seems to be nothing until the following year January 7th 1861. To the mint . Had great satisfaction seeing pence and half pence struck well from the new dies , whish I trust will be complete all I have to do with the coinage. it seems that he had to alter many things and Gladstone writes to the Treasury that these extra expenses were not of his making. "beyond the control of the artist" he seems to have altered the puncheons twice once in May and and eventually delivering them inJune production began in september 1860 They then had to wait until the proclamation on the 4 December to release them.The in Jan 1863 a further payment was made "for the alteration of the dies of the bronze coinage" there are interesting accounts of the 3 designs one remained in the Wyon family a drawing in the Nat Museum in Scotland and a relief plaque of a standing Britannia with a ship and a pharos in the background. Sainthill and others pushed for the traditional seated version (based on some idea that France was trying to deprive Britain's supremacy over the the seas). There were both problems with the BRITT abbreviation and WYON had not included space for the F:D
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24 Hours in Police Custody
DrLarry replied to secret santa's topic in Nothing whatsoever to do with coins area!
I suppose it all hinges on if the homeowner used reasonable force to apprehend or defend his property from the criminals. Chances are pursuing using a car becomes a tool (much like a gun) to cause physical harm to the criminals. Sadly I think the law will find in favour of the criminals because a car is a potentially lethal weapon and whilst he was acting under duress he continued to pursue (with intent to cause harm) so can no longer justify a continued chase over a certain distance. In rage and in fear both parties are likely to cause harm to others innocent bystanders in their actions. Adrenaline fuelled reactions are always dangerous. It is sad it may have been a mitigating circumstance in the loss of the unborn child. -
in his diary I think three are mentioned one at Buckingham Palace and two at Osborne House but I will go back and check. My feeling is he wanted to depart from the seated Britannia and create something very NEW...but was pushed by the old guard to look backwards rather than forwards. The Original standing britannia went to New Zealand another sketch exists in a collection in the U.S I will check the details in the Diary , I have not read it for a couple of years
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You miss the point of my interest in it . The position of the other Britannias is not so much an issue in all of those the trident is pulled towards the body and the position of the arm to elbow is in balance, the hand grasps the trident in a relaxed manner the older Wyons design is artistically relaxed and has or is in equilibrium. My intrigue into the Wyon design stems from trying to understand the mindset of the artist and the design . He is known to have wanted to move far away from the seated Britannia designing originally a standing Britannia. The anatomical problems in the hand and arm are not necessary in the design and trying to understand the nman is my interest. A penny is a penny, what's done is done but if, by questioning such things, we learn somethings about the man then my " in for a penny" is on discovery and analysis. The portrait still has it's problems but a portrait is more likely to be stylised to fit on a coin, he did have to return to the queen 3? times to get something that was acceptable to Her, Albert and others I am sure. It is strange reading the "re-written" edited diaries of Queen Victoria there isn't much of a mention of any of these portrait issues. But then we don't know for sure they were edited by her daughter
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For me the question is one of quality of work, when I look at all other work Wyon Produced the attention to detail is excellent . Of course, I know, we are dealing with a new metal but some of the quality of the design is just about C grade. This is me looking at it from an anatomical point of view artistically. Reading the diaries you get the idea he was pretty sick of the whole venture and I think the venture may have contributed to his sickness at this time too. Sure, as I have said before, the average punter sees something different and accepts it. I have been struck looking at them solidly for the last 5 years or so since I have collected, how poor the design is "close up". It is anatomically impossible to get a model into the position of the Britannia without dislocation or blunt trauma to the hand. So I have wondered in my fairy dust tinkerbell moments if some of the engraving and alterations were done by someone a lot less able than Wyon. It also does not surprise me that his name was taken off ....I would have asked to have it removed if I were the artist. Anyways it's all pie in the sky or Lucy along with her diamonds and if that particular chemical had have been involved I would certainly understand the eventual outcome. I love the bun penny it is however just WRONG. I offer a prize to anyone who can contort their arm shoulder and hand finger arrangement to match it and take a photo to prove it.... PERHAPS AN ANNUAL COMPETITION ON HERE FOR THE CLOSEST i'LL OFFER £20 AS A STARTER lol
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The main hazard of dealing with and identifying toy coins is the size, so it unsurprising that variations were missed in the publication in 1990. The expansion of this section alone increases the number of variants by at least a factor of 3 often 4 for each number assigned to it by Rogers. Does it matter? well I hope that by looking something new is being discovered and sometimes things shock me and I discover things under my own nose I have missed. As Rogers remarks there are a number of punctuation difference reported presumably not seen by him but there is a wide variation in the modelling and layout. He also wisely adds ""Others will probably be found". Rogers 1990 Galata Pub. page 46 I find it fascinating that one set the PRINCE less set shows such variation along with the ones found also in the USA hidden inside the smugglers coin.
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Princess Louisa Born March 18th 1848 The three I have do not show a great deal of difference on the obverse , however the reverse do show some differences. Now it maybe that the one listed in Rogers #277 does in truth show this feature or it may be that this is an intermediate run after the date was corrected. Rogers notes that an error date of the 19th of march exists and I have just seen that the PRINCELESS set contains such a date (which came a pleasant surprise to me 5 seconds ago shown below) #277a , mine show an 18th march and a second an 8 over a 9 and on both the date is 1848 (although both of my 8 over 9's also have the same error on the 8 of 48 which might suggest the 1849 existed first and was corrected by the 8 in subsequent dies. A second error type exists #277b with 1849 as the birth year. I have argued that the PRINCESS set is earlier so perhaps the error was made and then corrected with an 8 over 9 and or the 18th date was a third issue. Also the position of the head in this set is different with the nose pointing to the I whereas the other point to the U the 19th 19th error #277a 8 over 9 normal 18 8 over 9 in year
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PRINCESS ALICE : I have three possible additions to ROGERS #274 . There appear to be three portraits for the obverse and 3 reverses . One is struck medal style the other coin style. On one of the reverses a date error has occurred and instead of APRIL 25 1843 it reads APRIL 23 5 over 3 1843 The three obverses seem to suggest changes perhaps ageing of the children the face elongates and the nose becomes more prominent as does the chin. The back of the head has several additional curls and the hair longer. The long haired version "the YOUNGER HEAD" has an unbarred A in ALICE the nose points between the C and the E the "older HEAD" the nose points higher to the E . The older head is struck coin the younger head struck medal )in one) the other is coin. The older head has the 5 over the 3 . A third reverse is found on the "PRINCE LESS" set larger legend and possibly even younger head Could we surmise that the remodelling of these heads was done each year of issue as the children aged? this is from the PRINCE less set young headold head the medal and the coin reverse setting and the princeless reverse larger script and arced ALICE 5 over 3normal italic date a third reverse
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I mentioned the other day a wonderful piece of good luck I purchased by complete accident a "smugglers" two pence from the US inside was a set of these little medalettes. Both the PRINCE less " set and this one came from the US. That is not to say that is where they started but looking at them today both seem to have this unlisted PRINCE ........OF WALES type. likely they are from two different sets as one is uncirculated the other worn . It is strange that they should all be this type possibly suggesting maybe export ?
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the reverses subtle differences in the Beading , with no punctuation in the lower two in the date yet a point after HELENA in the third , obviously someone got the date wrong in the one from the "PRINCE less " set as a 3 has been used instead of a 5 in the date no point (dot) between a second possible error may have been to put 1848 instead of 1846 in the birth year 1. (A) 2 (B) 3. (C)
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Three new unlisted versions of Princess Helena, The one listed in Rogers #276 seems to have HELENA written in very small script . On the three here plus the one in the "PRInce less " set there are four different portrait types all with larger lettering so we must assume that different sets were made up at different times perhaps for each issue. The most obvious re design in the third is the additional hair at the back with an unbarred A. The youngest again is in #3 which shows the lower part of the face typically compressed in the younger head. there are variation in script and position 1. (A) 2.(B)) 3.(C)
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I suppose that is the Joy of studying an areas of so little interest you get to make new discoveries every day ....and it makes me feel GREAT
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for comparison The one from the PRINCE less set make then 4 dies for the Queens Head
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yes it does seem that all of the medalets in the "PRINCE less" set are different The portrait of Victoria is much more finely cut than all the others (below) she appears younger