DrLarry

If this was to happen the technology would be pretty simple and would only require one additional intervention at the minting house. Inking a blank planchet (as you would if you were acid etching) the thickness of which would predict the level to which the pattern would be etched or lines incised (with no inked protection). I think if I am not mistaken there are a number of chemical baths used in the coining process from very early times in order to rid the coin of oils or residues or to make the coin presentable for die pressing and distribution. The aesthetic and the practical aspects dealt with by chemical washing and cleaning. We also have to remember if these patterns do exist in coins that many nations have their coins minted by the Royal Mint or other mint houses (SOHO, HEATON given license (contracted by state ) and so if this technology was used then it might exist in overseas coins. In terms of uptake of the system as a security device by subsequent overseas state run mints the device may well have been a shared one. It's purpose if "IT" exists is not to seek an answer to currency counterfeiting in one nation but a adoption by as many as possible which would allow coinage to be exchanged. Really I have come up with some fanciful notions of a shared process and only when this ceases to be a commodity shared (coins) and replaced by more sophisticated notes and security in those is much easier does it remain for its other purposes (if there are any)! The images or themes of the device are not specific to the UK in the most simple format I (in my mind) I have seen it is the juxtaposition of a sequence of Lion heads to lambs heads (and their bodies) and this as an allegorical purpose. I suppose (in my head) I saw the "coin" as a an almost sacred contract one of value and exchange as a state level with the holder of the coin. The use of the theme (I saw) as something more than the practical purpose of a coin and saw the coin on a more esoteric level. By imposing this theme on the coin (as I saw it) a statement of Kingship, power, control, was harmonised by the use of the lamb theme representing the weakest, the sacrificial, the one that needs caring and nurturing and ence I saw this empathic relationship of Lion to Lamb as a representation of the relationship of state (economic and governed) monarch (king or queen) to the people (lambs) in whom this coin was to be entrusted. I had conceived of an idea that would also imbue a coin with a higher purpose and carrying with it these values, reinforcing also a christian iconography embedded into its very fabric. As bizarre as this whole neurological pattern was, I tried to reconcile it with an "essential" aspect of a coin which is as a vehicle for propaganda and to reinforce the religion of the state and the power of the leaders or state to be in control of ,the one fundamental aspect of each nations prosperity ....TRADE. When I first looked at the very earliest coins from Lydia I saw the main feature of a Lion and and a sacrificial animal (ram or calf) and made a connection (which is likely very wrong) but on turning these coins over I saw (in my mind) the "hammer " marks not merely as an abstract punch but with design and that design seem to follow the device I had "imagined". I then traced the use of the image of the coin through history and desired to see a continual flow of state and contract (through coin) with the holder (those who would be the sacrificed, share in the states wealth) . I began to collect coins of all ages and types and tried to search for a repeat pattern (not initially hidden within the fabric of a coin) but subtle disguising of the Lion and Lamb themes and hence I came up with the idea of transmogrification (making the image of a king into a subconsciously held image, innate to man in his/her psyche, of the Lion as the all powerful, one to be feared and predator) and when I looked at coins across the ages I kept on seeing the Lion within each one and the Lamb (hidden as part of the design). It was an intriguing and strange story that gave coins a "value" almost a "sacred" with an enhanced purpose. When I saw it even on modern coins I believed it to be true and still continuing. It is astonishing to me that I can find on almost all the coins I have studied these forms of Lion and Lamb, (scary as well) and whilst it annoyed me at the very same time it was wholly fascinating. What I wanted to see was a coin as something wholly more valuable than just its face value. And so this way of thinking was in some way a long and remarkable story a strange "secret" ( if you like )transferred across time by the money makers driven by empires in an almost constant flow. In one last leap of madness when I saw the changes in coinage form post crusade times, I saw this as a renaissance of this secret and control of heraldic emblems by the 13thC college of arms, and the establishment of the goldsmiths guilds and the trial of the Pyx I tried to connect all these elements. I tried to reconcile it with new knowledge brought back from arab mathematicians along with classical works of Euclid, Pythagoras contributing to a kick start of early european re-birth thinking as it is very unlikely that without the muslim/christian conflicts old texts previously lost would never had reached us. The way the pattern worked seem to show tessellation and geometry combined. It was a somewhat silly and fairy tale approach to global history, trade, economics, state controls, and later on kingship and christian iconography. Ridiculous of course but it all made perfect sense to me (in my post chemo haze mind) Oh the power of the mind when it is right or when it goes wrong. I was searching for something that illustrated that there was something in common in this fractured world and this was my convoluted construction so whilst the world seemed wholly ready to divide I was seeking a story that keeps us human rather than one nation one religion, one group in confrontation with another. The lion Lamb idea was one of beautiful empathic simplicity and so perhaps I need to write all this up for the purpose of just recording the strange effect that a simple hobby can have on a mind in a time when it fears division. Yes I know I am MAD!

What has to be remembered is that this pattern started to form in my mind under a specific set of circumstances. I was , at this time , using coins as a vehicle to get my braIN WORKING again in a post chemotherapy haze. My brain had become dysfunctional and was no doubt very fluid. At this time over a period of two years or so I had very little interaction with other people. In the process of using the coins under the microscope it may well be that the normal process of pareidolia were replacing this pattern which I was constructing over and over again with the "normal" pattern which would be facial recognition. I re-enforced this by drawing the images and making interpretations which may have again made the pattern stronger "in my mind". So it is possible that it has established a neurological pattern in the part of the brain involved in facial recognition and hence I see it quite clearly even without the microscope now and the pattern complexity derived from my previous ability to recognise patterns as part of my work. It may well be that my brain has now been re-wired, this I would accept is a distinct possibility. I have no desire to be controversial I simply set out to describe a phenomena I was recording every day. If this is the case and I accept that it may be the explanation then my mind has created an extremely bizarre association or sets of association and I haven't a clue from where it gathered this information as I have no affiliation with this devices themes. In doing what it does I have created a three dimensional projection which has rotational symmetry and a complex interweave. In seeking the simplest answer , that the pattern exists in the coins as I was taught to do as a scientist I relied on collecting date empirically trying to make sense of anomalies in the designs on coins as I have mentioned in other postings, (Britannias Hand and the lost design elements; understanding flaws in the bronze series) all of which seemed to indicate two possibilities "in my mind" either alterations to the dies or a repeat pattern which is the topic of this thread. It may well be that I have a neurological disorder now brought on by looking too hard and trying to make sense if this is the case then it is in itself interesting only to me. What it has given me however is an innate ability to spontaneously create patterns in nature and use this in art and if nothing else it has turned me into a computer that translates pattern into form for which I suppose I should be eternally grateful.

Thank you for showing that your coin was very helpful and it is also very beautiful , made me go back and look at my Anne sixpences and shillings ...they are sweet coins. Thanks

WHEN DID THAT STUPID @ SIGN BECOME MORE IMPORTANT THAN AN APOSTROPHE?

I was joking I dont or didnt like them ....I cannot find the apostrophe on my new keyboard ' OK FOUND IT DON'T AND didn'#'T OH BUGGER IT YOU KNOW WHAT i MEAN

I think you have as much as any of us .....

But she is a real Classicist....I just did an extra degree out of wildness and a love of ancient history and I am half Greek I discovered at the ripe old age of 20 LOL I think I was somehow trying to get back to my roots and I love declensions.....

Geochemist Dr but also did Classics as Uni ....health retired but still help run the charity I set up in Africa working with kids living with HIV

congratulations at least that extra money might allow you to buy a few more coins or books as we said....well done the most important thing is that you had the confidence to try and deal with it, if you are new and have confrontation issues I think that is hell of a step. The coin is not important what is important is that a coin helped you confront more than its value. Give that man a guinea and a slap on the back. I agree open the case directly though ...if it was from England what is is doing having to pay medical bills....or perhaps (not being sexist) he is paying for breast implantations (he says guardedly) I am from the LGBTTVTS BBC community so I get a free parking card from the community chest.

Original thinking is extremely, rare most are informed by sources in one form or another, even the sources cannot often be fully trusted as we need to look at the context and background. Either way, even in this era when we apparently have so much access to information, most people will focus on a single issue according to their need to make a point. I think the most important thing in you statement is the "informed" word, whether tested, empirical, or researched humans will, often, selectively inform themselves and identify a group or individuals who support their belief. This can be very satisfying when the peer review is open minded but most review and critique is based on an overriding attempt to keep the status quo and this inertia is often the very thing that hinders progress no matter how "expert" participants feel they are. The more usual approach used by the majority is to deride using humour and humiliation in the hope that the norm is perpetuated. The main issue in these cases is usually fear, on the part of those involved, it is human nature at so many levels to want to remain inside their comfort zone and to insist on others sticking to the same rules within their comfort zone. Again this is the reason why societies stagnate, or cultures create environments that are static in a misguided belief that what they know is best hence the reason why empires rise and fall. Big dogs always think they win out simply because when viewed from their position inside the ring they are top. What they fail to see from the blood ,sweat, and sawdust of the arena is that sitting watching on with a grin is the small lap dog, that lives in the house , sleeps on the soft bed, get fed delicacies on the lap of luxury. But of course both are dogs are winners but what a difference of approach these two canines have to their world.

I also have a probing mind one which when confronted with something that has intriguing qualities of "non-randomness" feels it is sensible to investigate something empirically. The same happens here when someone posts something I go to my own collection and look through to see if there is anything I can do to share or exchange information as one would expect from a forum . I think the freedom of information request would have been better coming from a position of having been better acquainted with features I have mentioned in this thread. I don't think at anytime I have mentioned the phrase "watermark" in any way other than in parenthesis, to use it metaphorically and as PWA illustrates I am sure they found it an amusing afternoons twittering. I personally collect perhaps for different reasons to you , I don't know or assume to know what those reasons might be, it is the prerogative of any collector to find their own purpose and direction. Investigating this phenomena is my personal interest and of course I shall continue until I think there is evidence (empirical) that constitutes a reason to dismiss the findings. The pattern remains thus far a constant and the interpretation is ongoing and a working hypothesis. As you say you have a "probing analytical mind" so I am sure questions outside of the norm can be answered rapidly by going straight to the root of the issue and you have done this in your way and satisfied your curiosity.

allowing for ironic sense a rhetoric device: I think it works grammatically

sorry I hold no value to the notion of nationality, or nationhood, most are simply constructs that seek to be divisive in some way attempting to create schisms of one form or another within populations. Certainly not "probably" definitely depends when you want to stop going back but we will perhaps select a time when Homo sapiens branched off from H. erectus or H habilis or H. florisiensis and there is also a percentage of Homo sapien Neanderthal in mixed populations of Homo sapiens sapiens and migration across most land bridges simply divides a species population. All constructs of nationhood in the modern age are established to enable one group to feel superior to another And you always know what to expect when a sentence starts with Grammar aside

lucky you didn't vote then

well luckily for most forum members, according to that Rees Mogg character, we will not see the benefit for at least 50 years .....so it won't have a direct consequence on our elderly residents

I am sure there is at least 1% ( the figure might be 0.5%) of British that are not from Europe at some point over the last 2000 years

Does anyone know why when I am try to reply to thrupence and quote him and give my reply it will not work? I keep being re-directed to a page that say "forbidden" bearing in mind that I believe everything to be a conspiracy (according to the "most" in the forum) is there perhaps a more scientific reason why this might be happening .....it sends me a site selling coins

probably not but it shows how irrational it might appear to anyone other than "experts" to think that a coin 160 + years old would retain a fingerprint.

but many examples I have seen have the fingerprints on fully lustred coins and are they just as common on copper (which I think most likely less stable than bronze?) can you see them in silver. The other thing this points out is that fingerprinting was not used officially in the UK until late 1800's early 1900's. It illustrates that if it is so obvious and seen on a coin floating around for many years why no smart cookie didn't consider the implications. Considering I am sure that Mr Hurquart Major's silver candlesticks were the most likely target of Mr Smith's nibble fingers. Lateral thinking aye .....they should have let numismatists develop forensic science in 1892

The rules of serendipity, and ockham's Razor play such an important place in collecting

it is an interesting article but apart from the rare event that the fingerprint belongs to a collector and hence this is how the fingerprint get preserved for 160 + years because it sits in a cabinet it does not deal with the obvious problem that fingerprints in a wider sense once a piece of metal is in circulation would have the prints rubbed off or at least smudged

That was not really my question Jerry I asked you where it is stated that handling a coin would impose a "fingerprint" that would then last for 160 + years the idea would seem silly to many considering that it is hard to get a good fingerprint on many surfaces that would last long enough for the police to pop up 160 later and tell you you stole that penny... I believe that the coins that get "fingerprinted" which I assume must happen pretty soon after they begin circulation when perhaps the metal is at one of its most reactive that they do have characteristics that are not always common to your average fingerprint I mentioned this just recently before your most recent comment. The marks cut across the line of the fingerprint and it enhances the pattern form. I prefer to try to understand how a fingerprint gets on a coin by reflecting on the chemicals that might alter the coins surface, the physical circumstances that might make it happen I have a bag here of bright uncirculated pennies for the life of me I could not impose a fingerprint on one for a long enough time so that it would remain if the coin was in circulation. It would simply be rubbed off would it not, if not why not. I would just rather understand a reaction than just adopt the easy answer.

thank you for that contribution Jerry. I am sure many who are not so skilled as you or have the experience you and other forum members have might be surprised to find marks on coins that look like (or are) fingerprints. Why would your average person on finding an old coin 160 years + be aware that coins may or may not get marked by many things including fingerprints. When I first started collecting I found it a little surprising the average person would assume a fingerprint is rubbed off after such a time. Did this information come to you by osmosis ? I see the only worst offering of this example is that the Pratt ....... felt that such a strange thing might be a rare thing and hence price it as such. Please tell me also which references refer to the "finger print" phenomena , is it a widely written about occurrence or do we all just accept that is what it must be because it is the simplest explanation .....!

yes as I mentioned it would have been much easier if you had presented the question in such a way as to present the idea without the "watermark" reference but I am happy you got the result that you wanted. What is it exactly that you want me to do with the free information your attained ...exactly? Once I have completed the work I will produce a document and provide them with all the photographic empirical evidence. I would have done so I am sure at some point once the work is completed. Would you p[refer me not to post on your forum any more of the evidence ? This seems to be the ultimate goal of your approach? I will always go with empirical evidence more than a response especially if the device has some practical value to the mint. What I will show is that the pattern repeats itself , that it has a mathematical relationship and I will show the relationship of the design elements. Whether or not the design purports to be Lion and Cub, Lion and Lamb, rider is really just a matter of explanation in attempting to make sense of the pattern form. In ujust the last few days looking at the random examples Jerry has posted I have managed to show one format of the pattern so that others can see that it is not a random pattern. Rather than relying on my empirical evidence I have given all the information to the forum of how they might also see examples in their own collection using simple tools. I rarely believe other peoples work until I can see it for myself in my own environment perhaps during the balmy nights of August other forum members might look.