DrLarry

I have just re-imaged mine upside down and the most interesting thing about it is that bulge on the lower part of the B which on the one I have quite clearly is defined with a continuance into the main part of the lower 8 to me it looks like a 3 under an 8 which might make some sense of the strange angle of the vertical on the right side which seems a little off for a 7 note I have inverted the image

I have one which appears to be the same I always assumed it to be over a 7 however on this one there is less compression on the right side

it looks like perhaps an 8 over a 7 repunched with a second 8

would you be able to tell me what microscope and digital imaging device you are using please

there appears to be a lot of left sided compression on the strike flattening out the numerals is it possible the die has broken and the effect is created by metal caught up and lost

could you please advise me what microscope camera you are using. Are you a petrologist?

well done that will be a really great contribution I have about 80 1853's which I have been studying as part of my collection on copper pennies. Let me know if you need any help there are some strange things going on with some of the legends

careful in this heat and smoke if you have respiratory issues.

yes I think they did but I think it was back in the 50's maybe I remember my grandfather talking about it going to Wembley.....LOL but then again there is a little village West Auckland on the way to weardale that won the world cup back in 1880 something LOL

oh really i will ask him I get by but it would be nice to have easily digital analysis and processing power to "tidy " things up , more likely I need a good processing package rather than the hardware

yes I have a couple of normal binocular microscopes with cameras attached , you are right it has become a wonderful time in coin collecting. I am thinking of buying one of the 16mp full HD digital microscopes they are about £200 but eager to know if anyone else has one. If I have one fraction of inaccuracy with my work though I will never be able to convince this lot of my research. This is about as clear as I can get with the tools I have but I would like to look at the metallic structure better

yes and I know you said father christmas not the tooth fairy or tinkerbell

if you do get one can I please book some time on it so I might get to the bottom of my silly theory or ask you to look for me LOL....I miss my electron microscope so much

I contacted ebay and sent a report in

Late in the 17th C copper prices were high due to the greater importation of the metal came from Sweden with the opening of deeper less accessible copper deposits in the 18thC improved access as a result of the industrialisation and the development of the Newcomen , then Watt/Boulton or Trevithick steam engines the ability to access copper from the greater depths which would have previously flooded enabled the flow of metal from the SW mines and those quarried in Anglesey. The essential problem lay in the hand of the copper merchants who restricted the smelting thus artificially inflating their own costs and acting as a monopoly to undermine the cost of the ore on the market. Between 1730 to 1760 the output of copper at the very least went up by 400% as the impact of deeper mining made the Devon and cornish mines more cost productive. However the influence of the anglesey mines which had better access to the coal led to a reduction of the commodity value of copper. Britain was more than self sufficient in copper by the end of the 18th C. Boulton's diaries and the numerous legal cases brought to courts attest to the profit to be made from buying regal and smelting it to produce lower quality planchets often produced in Birmingham, which is one of the driving forces behind Boulton's desire to establish a strong position in coining in the region to counter the opinion of many that Birmingham was a den of iniquity in the forging of coin. Birmingham had a terrible reputation as the centre for the production of blanks sent then to London illegally hidden. He himself notes that almost 90% of the coin collected at Turnstiles was fake by the 1790's and 3 out of 5 taken in for smelting of reduced weight. There was a great need for small change agreed but I think it is wrong to suggest that the forgers did not produce them for any other reason than to make a profit. We have both accepted that the coining of copper was considered a low end activity and far less important than gold or silver and hence the RM avoided the need as much as possible to deliver on an issue. Legislation was pretty whooly on the topic, the fundamental issue seems to be one of delivering smaller currency outside of London in the massively growing centres of activity in the midlands and Scotland. The RM seems to have really not wanted to make issues rather than there being a problem with the accessibility to the copper. Anglesey forced the price down so much that there was a slump initially reducing the productivity of the Devon and Cornish mines until after the cheaper quarried lodes were exhausted in Wales by the late 18th C only then could the extensive copper deposits in cornwall again come to prominence and Cornwall and Devon dominated for most of the 19th C. There is here both local /regional need in the industrialised areas and cheap copper which forces the token production. There are few legislative problems with copper compared with silver, but still from all the contemporary sources profit to be made prior to this time from forgery one forgers came to court having made £200,000 estimated profit in two years in silver and copper forgeries. I dont think we can honestly say that the production of copper coins (non-regal) was done out of the goodness of the heart of the forgers in order to meet the needs of their poor neighbours.

I made my apology so the matter is closed

yes true but did they not just last year get to play a premier league in the FA Cup playoffs ...not that I am interested of course

here a few more images . I am sure you must have some that show either movement, overstamping, deepening removal and or a number of stages of change. The most interesting the first of these which I have drawn in the previous posting is associated with a few of the letters having been altered and they appear to have the old style curly bases most notably in the A over A

here are a few of the strange things happening around the B on three 1860's

yes agreed I made my apology for my insensitivity ......yes apparently as a small child I remember 66 , I used to enjoy football in the days before the hyper inflated egos and salaries and and finally corruption spoiled it all for me. I used to go every saturday and tuesday to Sutton United to watch them play, I even became a ball boy. Sadly that love now has passed and can make no sense of it.

yes my apologies for yesterday's outburst against your football enthusiasms it is simply the idea of another two weeks of having to endure it, for me sport is a political tool and I really do not enjoy Russian politics at this moment in time. I will try harder to block it out on here in order to preserve any drindling sanity I have left.

Thank you Jerry for your opinion I appreciate the time to reply. I don't really see it as elaborate fantasy in truth I do not know what process results in the pattern. I always recognised a serious problem in understanding this. I also expressed a degree of reticence at the die imposed theory and had postulated alternatives. I think the best thing is for me to improve my process of imaging this, collate all the evidence and submit it as a serious research proposal. Or alternatively write a very interesting and novel book on mental health. I will of course list the examples of the 1860 penny. I have a couple of examples one with the tail one with internal metal of the underlying letter altered. I have taken a little time to read references to boulton's interest in a strange etching technique which he purchased the patent and a few obscure references to a unique process as part of the minting process. Heaton purchased some of the the machinery from the soho mint after it sold. Blanks historically where predominantly struck by Birmingham companies as you say under contract to the mint. I enjoy the challenges as long as those that challenge me do so from a position of fully understanding the ideas. However I do accept that collectors will not wish to waste time looking at the idea if they cannot see beyond the very obvious flaws in the concept. As I say in many places this same inertia prevented me looking at the physical evidence but I have acknowledged the difficulties and still try to understand what might be there. I am a generally sceptical person, I am generally evidence driven and will endeavour to apply all the normal parameters I would apply to resolve any unknown. It is hard to remain open minded but I will try to stay flexible in my approach. Thanks for your input. Larry

Then discuss the weather or something a whole lot more interesting I am simply quoting the moderator

Sorry to quote the moderator this has all become a little bit non coiny so henceforth this posting should be stopped ...next thing of course will be that England getting to this stage is down to Brexit and our renewed superiority in the world. jingoistic nonsense

you mean like every tedious reference to the bloody football. if we are to moderate on triviality then we should search though the two dozen boring and repetitive come on england rubbish or perhaps there is interest in a bunch of silly fools running around a bit of grass kicking the super inflated pigs bladder and squarking various racist, and other phobic nonsense both on and on the pitch of such a "beautiful " game