DrLarry

you guys spend a lot of money aye !!

teeth

I posted a question on the design and aesthetic in bronze Victorian pennies which I would like to open a little. Obverse 6 is a common obverse in pennies from 1861 to 1874 in fact it is maybe the most common obverse, and so it seems safe to assume the obverse was copied over and over again to accompany a range of reverses. Yet there is a puzzle that I have mused over for a while and would be grateful for your thoughts. One of the characteristic ways to identify the obverse is the flaw on the last colon after FD why would the flaw be copied over and over again? Whilst the flaw is copied I have found a variety of legend alterations and corrections throughout this time span of 14 years of penny manufacture. To me this is confusing as much as the flaw is small on a tiny part of the design why would it not be corrected ? is it that the Mint did not care about it? Does it really matter? can it tell us anything about the history of the die? I know I bore you all with my questions but it seems a little strange and I would be grateful for any reasoning. Larry

yes it makes sense also in an environment where there is higher temperatures, chemicals and steam in the air these could not have been great places for metals to hang around in particular steel /iron which would have rusted very quickly which multiple abrasion surfaces you expect the collar to take the brunt of the effect as the up and down movement would create persistent movement and ware. The rotation I am looking at however is something more subtle and is an "imposed" design which is not obvious to the naked eye. It seems to just rely on a "simple" algorithm device which juxtaposes darker against lighter presumably fixed by some kind of etching. Essentially it is like a very intricate web "beneath" the design surface. Sometimes this hidden device fits the design which leads to it appearing more clearly because the eye can see the extant design with the underlying "hidden" one beneath. The shield is a good example of this on the Bronze series. Where the lions head (to me at least LOL) is quite clear and in the drapes where the small Lamb is being licked by the Lions head formed by the drapes. It makes me think that when making a design I wonder if the engraver is aware of the process and designs to allow this "fit" with the hidden part, only in that this would allow ease of recognition by the mint of coins which might have been faked. The obvious question is why bother? but if the process relies simply on a part process that would have happened then even with less valuable metals like bronze you may as well do it than not. In the wacko pennies I have the net is present outside the design in the blank part of the planchets. In truth I do not know the answers in reality I should stop looking and bothering but sadly that is not in my remit. The question has arrived in my head and I must find an answer....it is sadly just the way I am

i aM NOT SURE I CAN UPLOAD THE OTHER WACKO PENNY

yes as part of the crazy research I am doing these blank planchets or partially blank planchets are invaluable but it is rare that they can be verified authentic. I have these two victorian ones which have helped me a lot piece together some of the story both show that the teeth are part of the design and that the raised rim is set before which is I think what we have discussed.

Well for sure the early soho mint of Matthew boulton actually produced many trade tokens. When I first noticed the net which is a bit like a 3d net we use in geology in which a series of overlapping images of four themes I did have a lot in the late 18th C copper he was producing. Copper has quite a low melting point but even so it is cheaper I suppose to reuse. But removing the design might be quite hard work. From what I have unpicked you have to imagine a series of lions and lambs juxtaposed on a 3d mesh with a slight "movement" of heads each successive move borrows elements from the previous position but the sequence remains pretty much the same. The net effect is that tiny elements knit together as you move further away into the larger units. In later coins this seems to be be overlapped by a ribbon like sequence of George and dragon. And then a garter strip HONI SOIT QUE MAL Y PENSE winds its way through but the letters are broken up. The effect is a weave similar to geometric lines like on paper notes. If you look close to paper notes there are series of hidden dots which absorb graphite differently. The watermark in a note is the best analogy I have. The main question is how is it possible to affect metal in this way? I don't really know but I believe that it would be possible to achieve it using a simple inking and acid etching process. Essentially it is chemistry the result is much easier to view in silver and the design elements appear if you gently brush the surface. This could be a an oxidation effect or could be these micro fissures picking up oil from the brush. The best result comes from coins which have been buried because these microscopic fine line elements are attacked by the carbonic acid and organic acids "pulling" out the design. I think in the transition into bronze getting this process just write during the minting was a new venture on bronze. Either there are lost design elements or something exists within the coin below the design. It is always the same sequence lion to two lamb triad, The George dragon ribbon and the coded garter insignia. I spent many months thinking it imagination but the same primary sequence of lion to lamb occurred in most coins. The primary problem is that you need a large blank area in the field to see them and most coins are quite busy. So why do it if it's real? To reduce counterfeiters. It might be simply to identify internal fraud in the mint I'm not even sure yet how the pattern is imposed. I'm not really in a good position these days to get access to the references that I might need to research it academically so I have to prove or disprove it empirically by weight of evidence. I'm afraid it is a very strange obscure and bizarre story. But it shocks me how complex yet simple the geometry and the tessellation builds up and up to form these patterns. As I say it has taught me to look differently and it has turned my brain into a artistic one which is a nice little twist for a scientist.

but you will need a DBS check .....but seriously markets exist these days but you have to build the initial interest .....which might require inhabitants of "numisland" to think outside the money box

well I am only in the north east so do your sums right and sweep the streets up here first

old enough to remember old money .....kids flick pennies awaY in school at eachother then leave them on the ground so you penny boys are done for

seems a strange thing for Kew of all places to adopt considering that the main users of the space are towards the older end of the age spectrum and less likely perhaps than those younger maybe willing to go cashless. Perhaps they just made so much money off that 50p they can now pick and choose ..... But I think we need to come up with a more enticing method to encourage children and young people collecting. When I take coins into school the kids love them and they are a fantastic platform on which to teach history and get the kids thinking creatively. I am not sure just collecting for the sake of collecting is going to spin their wheel. I have some ideas but it would take more than my little coin games to turn the disinterest around. But as with most things there will be lots of moans and groans from the sidelines but very little action until it's too late and the bottom will fall out of "numisland".

oh I see is the variation in the second finger? and the knuckle of the thumb? It would be nice to be able to compare two with the same wear .....hey but at least she can hold the trident with some confidence she will not dislocate the shoulder the poor old dear had to cope with in the bun penny.

here is the detail

oh OK I did not realise that thanks Pete I will take a look

That conversation about the open 3 in the 1863 I wonder if anyone else has one so I might compare with mine. I am interested in details of the area above the three, and the structure of the upper part of the three. I will post mine for comparison I thought I might sell one for the charity and likely put it on ebay as an auction. But before I do I would like to make a brief study of the type. Thanks

yes is that the one in the Blue folder I have found this useful. It would be great to have better pictures but I think that would have to come in the form of an electronic book at some point in the future.

sorry it won't let me load .....I am sure there is a "conspiracy of detail" just in case we find something strange LOL Pennies are minted by aliens that landed in the space shuttle and the lighthouse is really an alien craft.

the details at the top of the lighthouse are quite interesting almost as if the two are connected. There is a piece missing from the N on mine which I would like to compare to Jerry's which may have been the problem possibly a piece breaking off and damaging the die, but I don't know if this is a plausible answer to the problem. I think we are a little bit too quick to make judgement on these things at times and as a result we lose some interesting aspects of the history.

I think it may well be an optical illusion (as so many of these things are !) created by the lustre "shadow" varying the wear and the fact that this is a little beaten up and there are a few scratches. I will try load these pics up

I will take another look at mine see if those marks are not just light reflection

yes I have looked around a lot for the idea of the second lighthouse , initially I thought that this strange top was a re-used die with the taller thinner lighthouse but it doesn't fit. In many of my pennies I believed there to have been a move of the lighthouse and thought I saw a ghost. In the "shuttle takeoff" one above there is a second type which shows considerable regrinding around this area which leaves the whole area showing the alteration or removal but the "shuttle" is quite deep standing quite proud of the coin so it would have required a lot of alteration. I have two that show a scar of similar shape which may be indicative of the beginning of the fracture that then falls out for some reason giving rise to the shuttle. The alternative is that the scar is a remnant of the removal. I think when things like this happen they leave the die with microfissures surrounding it which on later usage opens the area to relatively more rapid corrosion which often seems to lead to a darkening or lightening of the area affected. I would need an electron microscope to prove that however I think or a metallurgy microscope which sadly I no longer have. I did not here back from Jerry when I asked him what his thoughts on this strange shuttle were.

http://www.londoncoins.co.uk/?page=Pastresults&auc=152&searchlot=2434&searchtype=2 Auction 152 lot 2434 has the pics.

if raised metal pieces are the result of a piece dirt or something would you not expect the something to move with successive strikes? it is just that Jerry and I both have an exact same raised mound above the lighthouse on an 1879 the structure and shape is the same on both we both discovered we had one when I posted it recently

and we wonder why there are few women who collect........ Oh I know ....next shall we organise a charity dinner and bring on the scantily clad hostesses

it looks Venetian to me ..