Martinminerva

Sorry - pedantic Classics teacher talking here... ALL those Latin words cited above are second declension, neuter, singulars ending in - um, so their plurals correctly do end in -a. Referenda, data, fora et cetera (yes, that is as well!) are all correct as plurals, albeit a bit pretentious I guess... Less pretentious are media, plural of medium, stadia for more than one stadium. I'll also throw into the mix criterion which is a Greek second declension neuter and pluralises of course CRITERIA. But many in the media (!) think that is its singular! I was just remote teaching my year 9 Latin class today and was teaching them neuter plurals by referencing all these sorts of words that we have taken straight from Latin! Here's a puzzle for you all then: one AGENDUM (a neuter gerundive!) means "a thing that has to be done", thus the plural AGENDA for a list of things for a meeting. But what do you say about the last ten lists of things to do for the last ten meetings?! How can you pluralise a plural?!!🤓😋

It is the DIE, not the individual struck coins that are altered/repaired/corrected before more coins are struck from them! No-one could possibly go about changing each and every coin of the tens of thousands struck by each die! Besides, any alteration to a coin would be incuse, not in relief. But dies are mirror images of course so an incuse detail on a die becomes a relief detail on a struck coin. Just like potato prints or play dough prints when we were kids!

The other so called vip lots in this sale are: 229 - crown, which I am prepared to accept as a vip, lot 231 - halfcrown, really don't think so as I say above, and lot 236 - farthing, which I have my doubts about too.

I'm not convinced that this is a vip set - doesn't look good enough. I also think two other so called 1953 vip proofs in the same sale are not. One, a 1953 halfcrown, is the standard, common 2+A pairing; I though all the vip proofs of this denomination were the super-rare 1+A pair. The only one that looks genuinely vip is the slabbed crown. If you search the dnw auction catalogue for March 2021 for vip proof, these will come up, and see what other members think... Do you agree?

Non-penny expert jumping on bandwagon... Just seen this washer on eBay: https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/1860-Pattern-Penny-Freeman-8B-B-b-Extremely-Rare/224354401060?hash=item343c907b24:g:37QAAOSw29xgK9~l I think not. I bet he saw the selling price of "The masked pennyman's" two genuine examples and has thought kerching... 🙂

Thought he might be!! Is he Badger, Robin or maybe Grandfather Clock? 😎

Yes, Mike, totally see where you are coming from! Any other members have ideas and theories to add to Mike's selective removal idea and my pseudo-pattern conjecture? Also, I wonder if Freeman's rarity of R15 is accurate - seems rarer than that? Wonder if Richard has records of numbers known as part of his rare pennies website? Perhaps there should be a forum competition for who can post a picture of the WORST but still positively identifiable F.14 😋😋

Thanks, Terry and Mike, for your feedback and picture research. I'll keep my eyes peeled, and maybe one will turn up eventually! But it is odd that given the proliferation of lower grade examples of the general date, one never seems to see an F.14 in such a state. There are other diagnostics that should be identifiable such as the missing sail, the exergue on the left being horizontal and the letters of PENNY being a bit further in from the linear circle, but for a good many years now I have been looking and seen pretty much zero! Maybe they weren't intended to circulate, as a sort of pattern, and only a few were made and which largely never saw use?? Bit like the 1860 beaded border pattern obverse - although there are several lower grade examples of those that clearly have circulated - two on eBay at this very moment! Is "Rarepennyman" on eBay a forum member?

Even fair would do me! But, yes, think I have only ever seen one in Fine or thereabouts, but double figures at the top end of the grade spectrum. Anyone fancy speculating a reason why - or have I just been looking in the wrong places?! Anyone care to post a picture of their lower grade one?

Can someone post a picture of it, please? I fancy a laugh!

Absolutely agree! Very few narrow date 79s in truly high grade, and likewise for open 3 1863s. I'd go further and even add 1864... All over the place in lower grade, but how many unc with lustre? In the old Cope and Rayner English Milled Coins, they had rarity estimates for different grades; maybe that should be the case amongst us penny-ists? But then of course we're talking about whether rarity is total extant or just nice ones! And that's always likely to be a moot point. I just try to get the best I can at the time and slowly improve grade if and when the chance comes along.

Absolutely, Mike, in the case of my 4 plus 3. In fact, in lower grade they are easy to spot as the sea wears flatter and obviously crosses the linear circle. Also, the date spacing is intermediate between the narrow and wide date versions of the common, later reverses for 1875.

Agreed - especially in lower grade. I have 4 ranging from good fine down to fair. And I have sold 3 other worse ones on eBay over the years... But I do agree that they are rare in high grade. Maybe that's more realistic for the 25 ish number if you only count EF and above! Don't really think they merit a page, Richard, or else you'd be listing loads of other varieties like open 3 1863s, narrow date 1879s etc which I suspect are a similar number both in lower and then higher grade...

Even back in 1927 in the auction?? Or indeed even when it was done (presumably) in Victorian times? Not a lot of money has been made with it if Seaby sold it for £20 back in 1992 and I paid £25 in 2021 !! Must have taken many hours to produce, so a good deal below the minimum wage! Anyway, a nice curio...

Close up of date... A real bit of craftsmanship, but why?!

Hi, all. I bought it, indeed as a curiosity. The seller had a "best offer" button on the listing, so I put in an offer and he accepted! I can confirm it has indeed been modified from an 1859 specimen. There is no w.w. and under extreme magnification one can see where material has been moved from the centre of the 9 to plug the "gap" at about 8 o'clock in the original digit so it looks like a continuous curve. But, my word, it has been done skilfully! I bought it as I remembered seeing one before (presumably Gary's above) and wondered how many others might be out there. I will try to take close-ups of the date later and post. The seller also told me that he bought it from Seaby's when they closed down and said it had been in old man Seaby's (would that be Peter Seaby??) personal collection as a curio. Wonder if he bought it from the auction Bramah mentioned? No way of knowing that, I guess... So, not a unique rarity - never thought it was - but a brilliantly executed alteration. Wonder why anyone would take the time and effort to do it, though?

And I think this would perhaps qualify as an alternative ONF penny - nearly even PFNNY too!! Certainly many letters are weak or deficient. A good diagnostic I suspect of this fourth die. Any other specimens out there?

You pipped me to that one, Jerry! I was just "buying it now" when it closed! Also, did anyone on here get this: https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Queen-Victoria-Penny-1861-/393052202355?hash=item5b83bca573%3Ag%3A0uYAAOSwzEpf03PO&nma=true&si=HsvO6lNGBPRb%2BAmvjfay%2BxU5S9A%3D&orig_cvip=true&nordt=true&rt=nc&_trksid=p2047675.l2557 It is an 1861 6+F, detector find but nice. It actually sold for a best offer of £100. I also put an offer in, but less and was beaten, but that's how I know what it actually went for. If you did get it, can you post better pics, perhaps?

Actually all these widest date 1889s I've seen (half a dozen or so) are obverse R (when the leaf area is clear, that is) with the extra leaf and NOT obverse S. I think it's an error in Michael Gouby's book, and they all should be BP 1889Ad. I have never seen a positively identifiable 1889Cd. Not a huge worry as they are properly rare anyway, but for the sake of total precision, I believe they are all this die pair in actual fact.

Nice one! These wide 1889s are rare in any condition, and this one is ace! Can you post a pic of the obverse too? Was it on eBay, or a dealer, or just a chance find? Happy Christmas to you all!

Do it!! It'll be hilarious if you win it for less than you bid originally! Mind you, then he might not fulfil the transaction and lead to even more fun and games!😏

Also very fishy is this eBay store address above. Typing that into the browser, all you get is this:

Yup, all from Lockdales.......  No reply yet. Jerry Lockdales have an eBay presence... Their user name is rothesay21 and it might be worth contacting them through eBay to alert them to these fishy goings on. Easiest way to do that is via one of their current listings, such as this... https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/GB-Queen-Victoria-Bronze-Bun-Head-Farthing-1863/233799046307?hash=item366f8254a3:g:qGIAAOSwBj9fwOUI Definitely something odd going on to judge by his unpleasant replies. Good luck!

He has got a few negatives from people who say his items never arrived. I see also he is listing a few other coins at the moment, including a couple of 1856 pennies. Have these pictures been culled from Lockdales too, I wonder... ?

Perhaps, Richard, you should report him/the item to eBay using the report this item link on the listing page? Taking pictures from another source is against eBay rules, not to mention false advertising!