Martinminerva

As far as I know, only one specimen of die 23 is known with die pair 5+A. All other die 23s (including mine!) are the usual 4+A so keeping a watch might well prove fruitless - I have been watching for another for years!! I guess the one is a genuine mule - it is not necessary that both dies would be swapped in the press at the same time, so I suppose the obverse die was exchanged for some reason after the vast majority of this reverse die had been struck and then some more (but how many, and how many survive?) made with the obverse 5 die. I am sure SOME more will exist, but suspect it must be very very few. Any members got one? Yes, Clayton's die number list is sometimes inaccurate and very out of date. Even Bull's data isn't totally full or accurate. I know there are some collectors who do meticulous die number research, and at least one of them has for some time been intending to publish a formal work (yes please!) with photos of all his erstwhile specimens.

Can't be a die letter B, I'm afraid... The lighthouse is the wrong type: all letter B's occur with the thinner, more cylindrical lighthouse and have the letters LCW above the 8 and 6 of the date. Not sure of the Freeman reverse die type/code offhand, but I'm sue some helpful person could post it.

I'm afraid it's just a metal detector find that has been cleaned, either with a barrelling machine or some sort of dilute acid like vinegar or citric acid. As Jelida says just above, cupro-nickel coins out of the ground have a coppery tone when cleaned - I know, having been an active detectorist for years!! This is because the nickel leaches out into the ground a little, being slightly ferrous in its chemistry, leaving a higher percentage of copper remaining, especially on the coin's surface. Additionally, 20p's are struck in 84% copper and 16% nickel whilst, before they went clad steel, other denominations were struck 75:25 copper to nickel, so there's more copper to start with! Sorry, but it's just worth 20p!

See my post above... Actually the letters are put on first, but it's the same outcome! Upside down letters are not of any consequence at all - they really are 50:50 chance which way they come out of the hopper!

Yet another Classicist (what is it about coins and Classics??) and Classics teacher for last 26 years. You can probably tell that by my user name!!

Where does this seller get all his pennies and varieties from, I wonder?? Like many on this forum, I guess, I have seen the sheer number and scope of his coins over the last couple of years and it is simply astonishing how he keeps turning up the rare types of penny in particular! He sure isn't buying them on eBay! Given too English is not this seller's first language, fair do's that he can research all the subtleties and nuances in Freeman or Gouby. I'm a bit jealous of his "magical penny tree" to misquote our beloved PM!!

Yes, very rare Freeman obverse 1* with thick rim, angled eye etc, but can anyone tell which of the Gouby sub-varieties it is, or are both sides just too worn to be sure? https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/282904508372?ssPageName=STRK:MESELX:IT&_trksid=p3984.m1558.l2649 Thanks for any info.

Thanks indeed, Bernie. So, is it only definitely Gouby obverse A from the match of dies? Is there a way of telling Gouby A from B on a coin as worn as this?

Ok - so what's the story behind these? They have been cropping up now on eBay and the like for a month or so, selling in the £200 region, but often with curious statements like "found in my change" or "won in a fruit machine" which makes me suspicious. They look good and 'genuine', but I haven't been able to find any information about them on the net. Where are they originating from? How many are there? Are the Royal Mint selling them off, but if so, how and where? Is there another source?? Or are they very clever replicas/copies? If the latter, then perhaps the real ones to be issued next year are not so counterfeit-proof after all !?

No. It's F22, 4+D and very common. You can just make out what's left of the LCW below the shield.

Apart, that is, I guess from the 1953 plastic set at £14 and the "de luxe" specimen set at £15 ! You'd be annoyed now if you paid that for those in 1969. Look what else cost a similar amount then and compare to values now!! 1743 VF shilling for me, I think! Did anyone really pay those sums for plastic sets in 1969 ?

Is the digit '1' incuse, or raised? If incuse, it is just likely to have been doctored, albeit skilfully. If it is raised, I think it becomes a very interesting piece as the die would have had to have had it engraved on it. Unless it is another of those Chinese knock-offs along the lines of the Kew or lines-over-face Olympic swimmer "replicas"...!

It is die pair 7+H from Freeman's book, with the H under date for a Heaton mint. One of the most common pairs, I'm afraid...

Definitely obverse 2 : I of DEI to bead.

The Latin more correctly translates as "to be feared from every side". Timenda is a gerundive (anyone remember them from their schooldays?!) which conveys a sense of obligation. Sorry... Classics teacher talking here!

It has been relisted, I see, item number:282668781681 but it is still £575. Still way too much, I feel? What might its actual value be? I know - whatever someone is prepared to pay - but how much is that?!

This is an example of a fairly common mint mis-strike: the blank from which the coin is struck has not fully settled into the collar that locates it between the dies (and which being grooved, also imparts the milling to the edge as the coin is squeezed between the dies). As such the bit of the blank that protrudes not only misses out on the milling, but can also "overflow" wider than the rest of the coin when pressure is applied with no collar to retain it, which sounds exactly like your description in the original post. An interesting curiosity, but of no real value, I'm afraid, but hope it helps answer your question.

It certainly is a mule, and in addition it is in smashing condition. Just shows that there are more of these rarities out there somewhere! Nice find!

I agree. The more numerous and smaller border beads on the reverse proves it has to date post-1866, according to the Davies die identifiers in his British Silver Coins book, plus the obverse too has to be a later type as it is in lower relief. I suspect either accidental damage or else someone "tinkering" with the date to produce a curiosity.

I agree. With the various edge and dig problems, it's only a Good Fine for me - albeit a nice colour. But it is certainly genuine. Value though only £100 tops for me; if you've got two hundred spare, you could get a much nicer one, I feel.

Good idea, but a seller has the choice about whether to publish enquiries on their listing or not - it is not automatic, so unfortunately a dodgy seller won't of course pay any attention to such queries.

A low grade one of these has just been listed on eBay, item number 282570051312 It does seem to be a very rare variety; I have only seen a couple myself.

I see one of these DNW groats (the slightly less good one, on the left) has now turned up on eBay, item 272728514017, but at £595 buy it now, I'm not convinced it will find a buyer??

Sold for £700 the pair hammer price. Anyone on the forum buy them??

Two undoubtedly currency 1853 groats coming up in next DNW sale on 14th June ! Both have the "curly" 5 and the larger 3.