marvinfinnley

What did you think about the results for lot 43 - Wyon's Incorrupta pattern? Did that sell? Seemed like the best I've seen, beautiful toning. I love Wyon's patterns. One of these days, maybe I can afford an UNA!

Any standout or surprising prices realized in the afternoon auction?

Where did you get it? Goldberg's Terner Sale of May, 2003. Hardly seems possible it was eight years ago. Marv

I am a fan of William Wyon. I particularly like his 1817 patterns for George III, the three graces and incorrupta crowns. Although Pistrucci's St. George is a fine depiction, I would rather have see the 3G on the crown of 1818; however apparently the authorities didn't agree. I can't understand that. I guess it was politics. Have there been any of these patterns for sale recently? I see many British crowns on ebay, but absolutely no 1817 Wyon patterns. I also monitor the big sales and haven't seen either of these coins for several years. I guess no one is selling. Only 18 Incorruptas were made and 50 3Gs. What is more popular? Any other Wyon patterns favorites among the forum members? There are the 1826 and 1831 Crowns (Patterns?), the 1847 (&53) Gothics (are they really patterns?), the pattern florins of 1848, etc. Any one own (G-forbid) a 3G or Incorrupta?

I like the Weyl patterns also. I have the half penny P-2192 in FDC (Gem MS66).

Coins were, probably from the start, a vehicle for political statement. Whether it was to laud the emperor for some victory, or to delude the populace into thinking that their no-good, fat and lazy sovereign was akin to a god, coins served the purpose. Do we really want to know our rulers as they are, or as we would like them to be? One only has to think about the revelations with which we are bombarded concerning the royal family, Presidents Kennedy, Clinton, Nixon, etc. When we find out that they are just people like us, it somehow tarnishes the position in our minds. It shouldn't do that, but it does. All rulers, present company NOT excepted, are to some degree consumed with their image, and British Royalty was and IS no exception. Wyon had to support a family, and he knew where his bread was buttered. Pistrucci, however, seemed to have shot himself in the foot. He gets points for principle, but he lost his job so doing and we were deprived of the promise of his talent. But Pistrucci was not above flattery either if one remembers his treatment of a very aged and sickly George III on the 1818-1820 crowns. Wyon perhaps was a bit obvious in his desire to please, but he did it with such artistry that I, for one, can excuse the seeming unconcern for reality in his coin portraits. When we look at a great painting by da Vinci or Rubens, do we really care what the subject "really" looked like?

Thanks for your thoughts. As I mentioned in a previous post, I don't think one can intelligently "slab" hammered coinage; there are just too many variables. However, a slabbed coin is just another's opinion. If I were to contemplate buying a really expensive hammered coin, I would only consider doing so from a recognized expert in the field, such as a top-flight auction house or private individual. Anytime one is spending a large amount of money, one should take care. Just like buying an old masters artwork. In fact, some really expensive coins in the US have been gone over by several such experts prior to their sale. In a way, it's also like having a diamond certified by the Gemological Society of America. One could argue that one shouldn't buy a diamond without becoming him or herself an expert; but is it really realistic to have to be an expert every time one wants to buy something? When you buy a house, don't you rely on the city or county to ensure that it's built to some recognized standard? I know that I am not an expert on building, nor am I present when the house is constructed, so I rely on the municipality for some degree of expertise. Now if you are buying inexpensive coins, then I agree there is less motive for third party opinions. If you make a mistake and buy a counterfeit, not much is lost. I just don't understand the feeling that one has to categorize anyone who buys a slabbed coin as an "investor" as if to say the person knows nothing about the coin, nor is the person interested in the history or art of the coin. You talk about wanting to collect by variety, and wanting to have a coin that has been used in commerce; that's all well and good, but how about appreciating the beauty of the design and the skill of the engraving? One can't do that very well if one can't see the design and most of the engraving has been worn off, can one? So is one approach inherently better than the other? Taking the second method to the extreme can result in expensive coins, hence third party opinions, hence slabbing, etc., etc., etc.

Apart from the subject of slabs, I would be interested to know this gentleman's definition of a "numismatic collector." To me, a person who collects coins for their beauty and history is a numismatist. Such a person is interested in the history of the era that produced the coin; he or she delights in the study of the design and its execution, and, perhaps, of the engraver or designer who worked on the coin. For example, my ownership of Pistrucci's execellent George III crown prompted me to learn more about Pistrucci. I am fascinated by the machinations of the birth of the bronze coinage, so I acquired Freeman's and Peck's works. I studied the life of the Wyons, as I own W. Wyon's two George III pattern crowns. It is just because I love the designs on coins that I try to get them in the best condition possible. I am not a hoarder who must have every date and mintmark, so I am satisfied with "type" collecting. However, the desire for a coin in the best possible conditions results in sometimes having to pay a steep price for a particularly rare coin. This is a side effect of the way I collect. Due to the emphasis on quality in the market today, greater eye appeal brings with it more demand, and hence higher prices for only slight improvements in the perceived eye appeal. Since at some point, the coin will be sold (either by me or someone else after I am dead), it makes sense to get a second opinion when buying expensive coins so that when the coin is sold, it will appeal to both the well informed, and the less informed buyers, thereby gaining the widest possible market. The market recognizes that some slabbing companies have more expertise than others, but that doesn't mean they're perfect. Also, some companies will pay if the coin is regraded at a lower grade. In sum, I don't think the mere presence of slabbed coins in my collection means that I am only an "investor."

It's probably easier for them to look at a coin and say that it would probably sell for xxx$s and give a grade accordingly than it is to rack their brains trying to work out what it is they're looking at. I think one can safely ignore the slab grade for hammered coins. There are just too many variables involved for a grader who is most likely used to later milled coins where each and every coin left the mint in (almost) exactly same condition (give or take a bit of die wear). Same goes for US Colonial coinage for the most part. Minting methods were just too crude to be able to really grade this type of coinage with many small gradations (e.g., MS61, 62, 63, etc.). Now, if a hammered coin appears with a slab grade from a "reputable" company and graded MS67 (!!), now that's a coin I would like to see. One can probably take gross distinctions as a type of yard stick (e.g., MS61 versus MS65) for early coins, but trying to apply the same sort of small numeric distinctions to early coinage is probably ridiculous. For hammered coinage and, to a certain extent, early milled, one needs to be, or to depend upon, an educated and experienced collector. Again, it really also depends upon the type of collector one is. Do you try to get every possible type? Grade might be irrelevant in the case of very rare examples, or do you collect, as I do, coins which delight the eye with their beauty when gazed upon? Personally, I wouldn't buy the Charles I coin in the earlier post; one can hardly make out the design, it's so messed up. But I would never put another down for buying it. It's just personal preference.

There is always a certain amount of risk in acquiring anything ostensibly of value, and the only mitigation for that risk is to become knowledgeable enough to not have to depend entirely on another's opinion. That being said, it increases one's comfort zone, at least for me, to have another, supposedly authoritative, opinion that reinforces my own. In the end, I make up my own mind about a coin first, then look at the slab grade to see if it makes sense. If I like the coin enough, I will buy it regardless of what the slab says.

I speak as an American collector of high quality English coins, for the most part, milled silver. I have bought both slabbed and unslabbed coins, primarily through the auction venue, both in England and in America. Slabs are convenient to me from the standpoint of displaying my coins to others, especially non-collectors. I don't have to worry that someone will drop the coin out of a poly envelope or, worse yet, touch it with fingers. Air-tite holders are also good, but, at least in the states, one has to face reality that if one ever desires to sell expensive coins, in order to expose it to the maximum number of potential bidders (including "investors"), it helps to have the extra margin added by the knowledge that "professionals" agree that the coin is: 1. Genuine 2. Has original surfaces (not cleaned or artificially toned, particularly if copper or bronze) 3. Is correctly attributed with respect to variety And that the authenticity is backed by some guaranty. The two leading grading services here (in America) have had to buy back coins that have been proven fakes after slabbing, so there is some protection for the buyer of slabbed coins from NGC and PCGS. Granted that very experienced buyers and dealers probably don't need the slabbers to tell them whether a coin is worth a given amount of money, but when I purchased a coin for 16,000 GBP, I felt a bit better that it was in an NGC slab at PF66 Cameo, than if it hadn't been, as I know I can sell it more easily to another person. It's quite another thing to purchase a coin for 100 GBP. So does the "true collector" need slabs? Again, it depends. For circulated coins, probably not; for very high grade expensive coins, well not unless he/she ever desires to sell them for the most possible money. Who among us collectors does not realize that our coins are not ours forever, and that we or our heirs will sell them (and probably slab the expensive ones after we are gone)? As prices go higher, I believe that eventually all the really rare and expensive coins will be in slabs. That's just my opinion.

I've got a 3G phone, thankfully not designed by W Wyon . I think a Wyon-designed phone would be a beautiful object to behold. Perhaps it might show the head of Alexander Graham Bell (?)

Seems like a huge price for this coin! Are there any other price points recently for the 3G?