Is collecting varieties a new thing?

[Nutsaboutcoins]

Apologies if this is a stupid question, and if it is please feel free to give me a stupid answer

What I mean is there seems to be numerous varieties listed for Victoria, especially pennies, with new ones still coming to light, but were Victorian numismatista 'checking their change' and recording these varieties at the time of issue or were they recorded in more recent times?

And if they were identified at the time were they published anywhere, as a comparison of what was known then to what is known now could be interesting, have any recorded varieties disapeared?

Ian..

[Nordle11]

I speak regarding pennies mainly, but Gouby published his book (The British Bronze Penny from 1860 to 1970) back in 1986 which did contain a lot of varieties anyway, but more and more come to light and seem to pick up more popularity when someone publishes another book with a mention to it.

He did another study which looked mainly at bronze between 1860 to 1869 where he would have added previously unrecorded varieties and then an even more comprehensive version entitled "The British Bronze Penny (Victoria 1860 to 1901) Specialised edition" which many other varieties and minor attributes where mentioned.

Then you have Michael Freeman's book which followed the same sort of path with more up to date versions being released, I think the last being undertaken by Spink but they only updated the prices (I think).

Then the even more granular book by David Groom but this concerns 20th Century pieces, however it goes into some great detail about varieties and minor changes to designs that even the former 2 missed.

You also have places like the "unconfirmed varieties" threads on this forum, someone recently had their work recognised in their area of collecting as a previously unrecorded variety and is awaiting publishing.

To answer your first question, I think that it's more of a thing now because as people near completion of their collection they want to be able to create more boxes to tick and to carry on the collecting. Varieties give you the chance to do that, and as numismatics gains more popularity and more coins are being hoarded, people are starting to see more and more differences in design and in turn, open up more varieties for the collectors.

[Paulus]

Volume 1 of the first series of the BNJ was in 1903 ...

The first edition of English Silver Coinage was in 1949, if that's any kind of indication as to when silver varieties were becoming more thoroughly documented?

I have a feeling that Rob may know about this one!

[Nordle11]

Yeah Rob's definitely your man for this one, maybe you'd do better scheduling a meeting

[davidrj]

I think it's also a generational thing, a new tranche of collectors now have no experience of pre decimal UK coinage, and are taking an interest in change in their pocket

so we get threads like this one on decimal pennies, or a recent thread in another forum on 2p varieties.

If and when a future author produces a detailed work on the decimal issues listing these and other varieties, interest will be engendered and new discoveries may well be made

We still await a fully comprehensive study of George V pennies

[VickySilver]

This microvarietal thing appears to be relatively new, previously more an interest in major types such as Old Head/Jub Head and major changes or overdates. The books pointed out appear to be seminal in this, as is the drive to find more boxes to tick - if you look at old Spink Circulars, etc. from 30, 40 or more years ago, one does not see this level of "specialisation".

I guess I must be really old fashioned as I just can not get into these & still go for date and major type changes, but more power to the new cadre!

[Rob]

I think this area has been pretty much fully discussed. Variety collectors follow the publications. Some collect varieties to provide additional boxes to tick, as has been mentioned. Others come to light when someone does an in-depth study of a series and subsequently publish. These then allow the aforementioned individuals to create more boxes.

These references are not particularly helpful with regards to rarity though as many more examples tend to appear once the variety has been published. The ultimate reference has to be as complete a die study as possible, but even then there are a few that get away.

[Nutsaboutcoins]

Thanks guys,

I suppose it is obvious the more varieries documented in a denomination the more people are going to be interested in collecting them, and the more people collecting them the more varieties are identified, and so it grows.

I think it's also a generational thing, a new tranche of collectors now have no experience of pre decimal UK coinage, and are taking an interest in change in their pocket

so we get threads like this one on decimal pennies, or a recent thread in another forum on 2p varieties.

If and when a future author produces a detailed work on the decimal issues listing these and other varieties, interest will be engendered and new discoveries may well be made

We still await a fully comprehensive study of George V pennies

Thanks for the links David, I have read the thread on here bout the Portcullis varieties and was aware of the 2p varieties but had not found that thread, so thanks for that. I'm putting together a piece for my local coin club newsletter on decimal varieties, but maybe it will take another generation to really get into collecting them, as with a lot of things, what we currently use is mundane, what grandpa used is collectable.

Ian..

[Mr T]

Someone was looking hard at bun head pennies as early as 1907: http://www.britnumsoc.org/publications/Digital%20BNJ/1907.shtml (look for "The bronze coinage of Queen Victoria").

[Nutsaboutcoins]

Someone was looking hard at bun head pennies as early as 1907: http://www.britnumsoc.org/publications/Digital%20BNJ/1907.shtml (look for "The bronze coinage of Queen Victoria").

Thanks for the link Mr T, I'll have a read through tonight. So I guess the answer to my question is "no".

[Nordle11]

Great link squire. Also does anyone know if the plate on the last page supposed to be there?

[Nutsaboutcoins]

Great link squire. Also does anyone know if the plate on the last page supposed to be there?

I suspect the plates may have been at the back of the original journal, and when it was digitised it has ended up in the wrong article.

[Nordle11]

Makes sense, cheers Nuts.

[Nordle11]

..and put up a picture! You're a 'regular participating member' now

[davidrj]

Fascinating link, 47 yrs after the introduction of the new fangled bronze coinage, we are now 45 yrs since those first decimal sets were issued

The question remains as to why there are so many varieties of the early bun bronze, was it down to lack of experience of the Royal Mint or the utter incompetance of Watt and Co who had received the contract for the job. Heatons, who took over the task certainly had the experience; they ran the French Mint in Marseilles, producing high quality bronze 1,2,5 & 10 centime pieces 1853-7 totalling 6,200,000 Francs. Likewise production concurrently by the other French Mints all with identical dies produced in Paris

[Rob]

Perhaps the mint was still experimenting with design relief, which as we all know has a marked effect on the finished product. Also, if you look at the decimal patterns of the late 1850s, there are a good number which suffer from laminating flans suggesting they weren't fully up to speed as regards the striking pressure required, or maybe it was down to sheet preparation with what would be a new alloy for them. It's all conjecture without documentary evidence for something that has a large number of variables.

The mint was still using Boulton & Watt equipment to produce the coins, as the machinery installed for the 1816 recoinage wasn't replaced until the 1880s. Maybe this equipment wasn't so good for producing coins on a thinner flan?

I am inclined to think that the large number of varieties was a reflection of the huge output in the first few years. Up to 1863 there was a massive replacement of the old copper coins which would require a lot of dies. It wasn't until 1864 that numbers reduced and it is probably no coincidence that from here on there is essentially an adopted die pair for a few years. So if you couple fulfilled demand with what was still an experimental situation, the number of different designs is perhaps not so surprising.

[Nutsaboutcoins]

..and put up a picture! You're a 'regular participating member' now

Just for you Nordle

[Mr T]

Great link squire. Also does anyone know if the plate on the last page supposed to be there?

Not sure - can't check just now but check in one of the documents at the end - some of the later issues have a separate document for short articles and plates I think.

[Rob]

Great link squire. Also does anyone know if the plate on the last page supposed to be there?

Not sure - can't check just now but check in one of the documents at the end - some of the later issues have a separate document for short articles and plates I think.

Depends on what the last plate is. p.220 is staters relating to the article which starts on the following page. The article has two plates, the first for pennies and the second for halfpennies and farthings. Of course, if people had the books it would be easier to check and eliminate transcription errors. Something that is rather more difficult with a pdf.