1860 Bronzed Proof Penny

[Rob 3,152]

For obvious reasons you do need a minty one

[Bernie 203]

On 07/11/2016 at 10:02 AM, Bernie said:

The weight of this die pairing varies between 9.3 grams and 13.7 grams, where Freeman 4 ends and Freeman 5 starts is debatable. Anyhow the weight of 11.16 grams is over standard weight. Thank you very much for the info.

This latest Freeman 4/5 penny  of 11.16 grams could be an addition to coins known to me,

1860 Fr 4  sold Oct. ’97. 9.23 grams,  Another 11.3 grams. Another 11.097 grams, Another 10.389 grams, Another 10.31 grams. More exist.

 

1860 Fr 5  sold Dec. '00. 13.62 grams.  Another VF 13.76 grams, another ex. Peck 13.9 grams. ex. Norweb, Another 11.512 grams.more exist.?

 

[Rob 3,152]

2 minutes ago, Bernie said:

This latest Freeman 4/5 penny  of 11.16 grams could be an addition to coins known to me,

1860 Fr 4  sold Oct. ’97. 9.23 grams,  Another 11.3 grams. Another 11.097 grams, Another 10.389 grams, Another 10.31 grams. More exist.

 

1860 Fr 5  sold Dec. '00. 13.62 grams.  Another VF 13.76 grams, another ex. Peck 13.9 grams. ex. Norweb, Another 11.512 grams.more exist.?

 

The last F5 looks suspect.

This harks back to a disagreement I had with Steve Hill when he catalogued lot 350 in Gregory pt.3 as a thick flan 1729 proof silver halfpenny (P834) instead of a thin flan P833. He rejected my argument despite the coin being only 10.87g as opposed to Nicholson's 12.45g on the grounds that the excess metal which had not been filed off was 2-3mm thick at that point. The struck up bit was much thinner. My coin has no excess metal and can be measured as being 2mm thick at the rim (and also has striations from filing, presumably to remove excess metal). Most are thin (1.5mm) flans, with a couple thick (2mm) flans suggesting that blanks were cut from at least two plates. There is no reason why regular shilling/halfcrown/crown thickness plate could not have been employed

This leads me to a parallel consideration which might be pertinent to the penny. As the proofs were not part of a production run, there is no requirement for exact specifications when it comes to weight or flan size. Sure they could use regular thickness plate as used for the currency pieces, but they could equally have their own piece of plate (could have been rejected as too thick) for use in the engraving dept.

Did they have the ability to strike coins outside the production area? Gut feeling is they did as you get off metal strikes and you also get lead cliches, which could not be done on a production press or similar (e.g Pistrucci's series of strikes showing the stages of engraving on his G3 crowns). To interfere with currency production just to make a coin or two is also unlikely and certainly not cost-effective use of equipment. More likely is a small press which could be used to make what is a small number of samples.

My personal instinct is to say that the first 3 F5 blanks were all cut from the same plate, and the same theory (but from a different plate or plates) would apply to closely matched weights in the case of the F4s.

[rpeddie 119]

i just recently graded a coin with NGC and had to pay a stupid amount to have it conserved(aka have some substance removed from it).

Got an email saying they will not give you a grade unless you go through with the conservation but the conservation costs 5% of fair market value. I if you decide not to go through with it you lose your initial grading fee already paid and it doesn't get slabbed.

Possibly the same case as what atlas did here?

Will post before and after pictures when I get it back for you guys to judge if it was worth the extra $100 or not  

[Paulus 1,975]

28 minutes ago, rpeddie said:

i just recently graded a coin with NGC and had to pay a stupid amount to have it conserved(aka have some substance removed from it).

Got an email saying they will not give you a grade unless you go through with the conservation but the conservation costs 5% of fair market value. I if you decide not to go through with it you lose your initial grading fee already paid and it doesn't get slabbed.

Possibly the same case as what atlas did here?

Will post before and after pictures when I get it back for you guys to judge if it was worth the extra $100 or not  

I'd be very interested to know what they do to it to 'conserve' it

[rpeddie 119]

well these are the pre-conserving, nice and massive to try spot where my $100 went.

 

[Rob 3,152]

Is that the bottom of a toilet bowl I see lurking behind the coin?

[Rob 3,152]

Difficult to say. The toning on the reverse from a fingerprint between H & 1, or within the strings, or around the 7, or just to remove the specks on dust in the outer beading?

[Colin G. 147]

I would have said some sort of residue between the N and 5 on the Reverse

[azda 979]

11 hours ago, Paulus said:

I'd be very interested to know what they do to it to 'conserve' it

I'd assume it would be along similar lines as PCGS, i uploaded a video on the previous page on it....

[secret santa 2,325]

That video never loaded for me.

[azda 979]

6 minutes ago, secret santa said:

That video never loaded for me.

Try this link www.pcgs.com/restoration

[Paulus 1,975]

59 minutes ago, azda said:

Try this link www.pcgs.com/restoration

Thanks Dave, I may be missing something but I am non the wiser as to what these " various non-invasive and industry-accepted techniques" are!

[secret santa 2,325]

Thanks, Dave - I got that OK.

[azda 979]

12 hours ago, Paulus said:

Thanks Dave, I may be missing something but I am non the wiser as to what these " various non-invasive and industry-accepted techniques" are!

They probably won't want you to know either lol, but you could ask at your local museum, they probably do much the same thing to coin hoards

[Paulus 1,975]

Just now, azda said:

They probably won't want you to know either lol, but you could ask at your local museum, they probably do much the same thing to coin hoards

I may well do, but I would be very interested to know if there are techniques to remove unwanted toning and stains that do not compromise the coin in any way... finding it hard to believe unless it's just soap and water and acetone (or similar)! I wasn't expecting to find details of their methods but the video is just marketing material.

[Mr T 175]

On 06/11/2016 at 4:59 AM, Nick said:

I agree.  There will be huge variability in the slab weights.  In contrast, the earlier Victorian standards (relaxed in 1890s)  were so strict, especially so for gold, that 50% or more of struck coinage was rejected for being out of tolerance.

Really? That seems like such a waste...

Where did you read that?

[Nick 329]

48 minutes ago, Mr T said:

Really? That seems like such a waste...

Where did you read that?

The information is contained in the Royal Mint Annual Reports which started in 1870.

[Rob 3,152]

The same applied to Briot's coinage prior to the Civil War. It appears that getting the weight right was a perennial problem.