1848-1859 Farthings

[Master Jmd 80]

After looking at my 1853 and 1857 farthings, I noticed that the A's in BRITANNIAR and VICTORIA are unbarred. I have now looked at other copper farthings and noticed that all farthings between 1848 and 1859 have these unbarred A's. This is strange as the A's in GRATIA are barred.

Is there any known reason for this?

[Master Jmd 80]

I have had some spare time just now so I decided to make a list:

1838 DEF. (Stop) - First A of BRITANNIA unbarred, all other A's barred.

1838 DEF: (Colon) - All A's barred.

1839 2 Prongs to Trident - First A of BRITANNIA and last A of GRATIA unbarred, all other A's barred.

1839 3 Prongs to Trident DEF. (Stop) - First A in GRATIA unbarred, all other A's barred.

1839 3 Prongs to Trident DEF. (Stop) - Both A's in GRATIA unbarred, all other A's barred.

1839 3 Prongs to Trident DEF: (Colon) - First A in GRATIA unbarred, all other A's barred.

1839 Bronze Proof - All A's barred.

1839 Bronze Proof - Barred A in VICTORIA, all other A's unbarred.

1840 DEF. (Stop) - All A's barred.

1840 DEF.. (Double Stop) -

1840 DEF: (Colon) - First A of BRITANNIA and GRATIA unbarred, all other A's barred.

1840 DEF: Wide Date (Colon) - Both A's in GRATIA unbarred, all other A's barred.

1841 - Unbarred A's in GRATIA, all other A's barred.

1841 Proof -

1842 Type A -

1842 Type B - First A in GRATIA unbarred, all other A's barred.

1842 Type B Large 42 - All A's barred.

1843 Lower Serif - Last A in BRITANNIA unbarred unbarred A's in GRATIA, all other A's barred.

1843 Two Serifs - Unbarred A's in BRITANNIA, all other A's barred.

1843 I for 1 in Date -

1843 3/2 -

1844 - All A's barred.

1845 Small Date Type A -

1845 Small Date Type B - All A's barred.

1845 Large Date - All A's barred.

1846 - All A's barred.

1847 - Both A's in BRITANNIA unbarred, all other A's barred.

1847 Proof -

1848 - Unbarred A's in BRITANNIA, all other A's barred.

1849 - All A's barred.

1849 4 over lower 4 - Both A's in BRITANNIA and last A of GRATIA unbarred, all other A's barred.

1850 - Both A's in BRITANNIA unbarred, all other A's barred.

1850 5/3 -

1850 5/4 -

1851 - 

18:51 (Die Flaw) - Unbarred A's in BRITANNIA, all other A's barred.

1851 D over sideways D in DEI - First A of BRITANNIA and GRATIA unbarred, all other A's barred.

1852 -

1853 WW Raised - First A of BRITANNIA and last A of GRATIA unbarred, all other A's barred.

1853 WW Raised - Barred A in VICTORIA, all other A's unbarred.

1853 WW Raised DEI RATIA - Last A of BRITANNIA and both A's of RATIA unbarred, all others barred.

1853 WW Raised 3/2 - Both A's in BRITANNIA unbarred, all other A's barred.

1853 WW Raised Copper Proof Rev. Upright - Last A of BRITANNIA unbarred, all other A's barred.

1853 WW Incuse - First A of BRITANNIA unbarred, all other A's barred.

1853 Both A's of BRITANNIA and first A of GRATIA unbarred, all other A's barred.

1853 WW Incuse Copper Proof - Both A's in BRITANNIA unbarred, all other A's barred.

1854 -

1855 WW Incuse -

1855 WW Raised - First A of BRITANNIA unbarred, all other A's barred.

1856 - First A in BRITANNIA and GRATIA unbarred, all other A's barred.

1856 - Both A's in BRITANNIA unbarred, all other A's barred.

1856 - Both A's in BRITANNIA and first A in GRATIA unbarred, all other A's barred.

1856 E/R in VICTORIA - First A in BRITANNIA unbarred, all other A's barred.

1856 E/R in VICTORIA - Last A in BRITANNIA unbarred, all other A's barred.

1856 E/R in VICTORIA - Both A's in BRITANNIA and last A in GRATIA unbarred, all other A's barred.

1856 E/R in VICTORIA - All A's barred.

1857 - Both A's in BRITANNIA and first A in GRATIA unbarred, all other A's barred.

1857 - First A in BRITANNIA and last A in GRATIA unbarred, all other A's barred.

1858 Large Date - Last A in GRATIA unbarred, all other A's barred.

1858 Large Date - Both A' in GRATIA unbarred, all other A's barred.

1858 Large Date - First A in BRITANNIA and GRATIA unbarred, all other A's barred.

1858 Large Date - Both A' in BRITANNIA and last A in GRATIA unbarred, all other A's barred.

1858 Small Date - First A in BRITANNIA and both A's in GRATIA unbarred, all other A's barred.

1858 Small Date - Barred A in VICTORIA, all other A's unbarred.

1858 Small Date - Both A's in BRITANNIA unbarred, all other A's barred.

1859 - Both A's in BRITANNIA unbarred, all other A's barred.

1860 - First A in BRITANNIA unbarred, all other A's barred.

1860 - First A of BRITANNIA, A of VICTORIA and last A of GRATIA unbarred, all other A's barred.

1860 Copper Proof - First A in BRITANNIA unbarred, all other A's barred.

1864 1WW Copper Proof - First A in BRITANNIA unbarred, all other A's barred.

If anyone knows of anyother 'A' varieties, can you tell me about it with support from a picture

[Sylvester 15]

What's an upside down 'V' JMD?

Me thinks either they broke alot of A's or had more V's than they needed.

Obviously if there are notches in the unbarred A for the bar then the die has filled.

[Emperor Oli 0]

You must have a lot of time on your hands!

[Half Penny Jon 0]

You must have a lot of time on your hands!

I echo Oli!

[mitch91 0]

What a long list

[Sylvester 15]

A man dedicated to his farthings!

[Peter 615]

Nice bit of work JMD.

What reference books are you using?

It looks like I need to put a bit of work in on my 1856's

& the choice of 1864 proofs on Ebay is limited to say the least.

[Geoff T 3]

I discussed this last year with a well-known farthing expert from south Manchester He informed me that the unbarred A's are simply examples of later strikings from worn dies.

[Master Jmd 80]

You must have a lot of time on your hands!

About 1hr 10mins...I thought that I might asm well use that time to do something creative...

What reference books are you using?

I don't have any reference books of farthings. I created the list from looking at various pictures from Colin Cooke, Ebay, Predecimal and a few more.

unbarred A's are simply examples of later strikings from worn dies.

There are four A varieties within the 1856 E/R Farthing which is extremely rare. Why strike it more than once?

[mint_mark 9]

unbarred A's are simply examples of later strikings from worn dies.

There are four A varieties within the 1856 E/R Farthing which is extremely rare. Why strike it more than once?

OK, I know nothing about how dies and minting machinery actually wear and are maintained, let alone how that was done in the 1850s, but humour me... Each time a coin is struck from a die there is potential for the die to change...

The bar in the A must be a little groove in the die. The triangle of the A would be a little triangle sticking out of the die. I could imagine that little triangle breaking off at some point, but that would give you a "filled" A, which you're not seeing... so that can't be it.

The little groove that forms the bar might fill up with crud... which would give you a missing bar. You can imagine that one bar might fill up and then another might fill up, so that over time you get progressively more unbarred As. The fact that you see different combinations of unbarred As means that either several dies were in use or that they cleaned out the crud now and again.

The other thing that might happen is that the surface of the die gets worn down, so the depth of the letter A in the die (and the height on the coin) is reduced... if the bar is shallower than the rest of the A then it will disappear first.

I think we should all experiment with potatoes!

[Chris Perkins 228]

And don't forget that the obverse copper Victorian farthing dies were the same as used for the sovereigns. By the time they were considered not good enough for sov use and given to 'the farthing dept' the A's were probably aready blocked!

[Master Jmd 80]

But again take the 1856 E/R variety, on one instance the coin is with the First A of BRITANNIA unbarred, and on another it is the Last A of BRITANNIA unbarred. This would mean that two different dies were used for creating the 1856 E/R farthing, is more than one die normally used (is that a silly question, I am not sure!)?

This also occurs with 1858 large date, which is also the rare type if I remember correctly. And 1858 small date to add to that.

[Chris Perkins 228]

No it doesn't mean that more than one die was used, the one with the proper A's may have been blocked over time. But they would also need to use more than one die to strike millions of coins.

I must admit that I generally ignore the un barred A's. I got excited first, like you, but when you've seen so many of them (and many have tiny traces of the bar too) you realise that they are probably equally common.

[Master Jmd 80]

No it doesn't mean that more than one die was used, the one with the proper A's may have been blocked over time. But they would also need to use more than one die to strike millions of coins.

I must admit that I generally ignore the un barred A's. I got excited first, like you, but when you've seen so many of them (and many have tiny traces of the bar too) you realise that they are probably equally common.

Unless the die was repaired at some time, it would be imposible to have jsut one die with a first A in BRITANNIA barred and the other unbarred on one instance, and vice versa in the other instance...

Well...when I get to Victorian Copper Farthings, barred and unbarred A's will probably be a giant feat

[Chris Perkins 228]

Unless the die was repaired at some time, it would be imposible to have just one die with a first A in BRITANNIA barred and the other unbarred on one instance, and vice versa in the other instance...

Not really, probably a random thing, simply depending on what bar got blocked first.

[Sylvester 15]

And don't forget that the obverse copper Victorian farthing dies were the same as used for the sovereigns.

Best way too... but i can't help feeling that some farthing obverse dies must have been used on farthings from new? I mean generally you are gonna need more farthings. Having said that though gold is softer and the dies could probably strike more sovs...

[mint_mark 9]

I must admit that I generally ignore the un barred A's. I got excited first, like you, but when you've seen so many of them (and many have tiny traces of the bar too) you realise that they are probably equally common.

What about the two pronged trident? Do we think that is just a more obvious case of a blocked die?

I'm sure I have read of lettering being recut as the die is used more. Maybe after the die stamps the design onto the blank, as it leaves, a trace of metal can stick to the recess in the dies leading to gradual blocking. When it gets too severe they have to repunch that letter or digit... perhaps leading to another variety.

Eventually dies can crack, leading to a raised line on the coin. I know I've read that after 1860, when they used bronze, they experimented with chemical hardening processes to make the dies even stronger, presumably lengthening their life. This is what the die numbers for silver and gold were about. I think they must have used greater striking force too though, because you still get die cracks on later Victorian coins...

[Guest DAS_I'm_a_Guest]

Can I re-open this post?

I am still intrigued by these unbarred A's ( and incomplete colons) The filled in die seems a good explaination, but if this were the reason would we not expect to see unbarred A's in the William IIII series which is essentially the same die ( with the substitution of REX for REG:)

Also shouldn't these farthings proof's be perfect? I can't think of another example of a proof farthing with faulty lettering, wouldn't this suggest that these unbarred A's are inverted V's?

Also no-one suggested a worn punch ( to make the die ) as another possible explaination. What do you all think of this ?

By the way Master JMD I have several different examples of barred and unbarred A's than the ones you list from my collection.

[Chris Perkins 228]

Have you forgotten your password DAS?

[Rob 3,152]

Also shouldn't these farthings proof's be perfect? I can't think of another example of a proof farthing with faulty lettering, wouldn't this suggest that these unbarred A's are inverted V's?

Although not farthings, so possibly a distraction to the debate, there are examples of both halfpenny and penny proofs with defective dates or lettering. Therefore it is reasonable to assume that there would also be imperfect farthings.

[Guest DAS_I'm_a_Guest]

Yes I have forgotten my password Chris ( it has been a long time) .

[Chris Perkins 228]

Ok. It's now set to your house name with a capital for the first letter and without the word 'House'!

[DAS 0]

Very good! Thank you Chris.