"My Cabinet" issue on DNW website

[1949threepence 3,368]

Saved an item in this a few weeks ago. Signed in again today to re-view it, only to find there are several hundred other items in there.

Anybody else experienced this with DNW, or is it me? 

 

[UPINSMOKE 456]

I have been on  DNW  today and save some Items I am interested in, in the cabinet but know issues for me.

[mrbadexample 1,006]

No issues for me either Mike. 

[1949threepence 3,368]

10 hours ago, UPINSMOKE said:

I have been on  DNW  today and save some Items I am interested in, in the cabinet but know issues for me.

 

2 hours ago, mrbadexample said:

No issues for me either Mike. 

Ok, thanks gents. Must be a fault with my PC. 

[Taikonaut 50]

I've used the online pre bid DNW auction for the first time and I think I just won at exactly the same amount I bidded. How do I know if there are genuine under bidders?

[Rob 3,239]

You don't, but it would be out of character for them to fiddle the bids. If you listen to the commentary during the auction, they are quite open about conflicting bids and opening prices, also if there is a reserve they will say we need to start at such an amount. You also see the bids as they come in. Arguably someone could be bidding up their own item just as some do on eBay, but in this case wouldn't have the getout feature of eBay whereby you can make a second chance offer, so personally I wouldn't worry. The market is quite competitive and savvy. Enough people know the market value of something to say that many things will reach fair value.

[1949threepence 3,368]

1 hour ago, Rob said:

You don't, but it would be out of character for them to fiddle the bids. If you listen to the commentary during the auction, they are quite open about conflicting bids and opening prices, also if there is a reserve they will say we need to start at such an amount. You also see the bids as they come in. Arguably someone could be bidding up their own item just as some do on eBay, but in this case wouldn't have the getout feature of eBay whereby you can make a second chance offer, so personally I wouldn't worry. The market is quite competitive and savvy. Enough people know the market value of something to say that many things will reach fair value.

Indeed, it's not like e bay where there are no doubt many slightly dodgy shill dealings. As you say, if you listen in to the auction it's manifestly obvious that it's not fixed (to me anyway).   

[UPINSMOKE 456]

4 hours ago, Taikonaut said:

I've used the online pre bid DNW auction for the first time and I think I just won at exactly the same amount I bidded. How do I know if there are genuine under bidders?

I did the same for the first time yesterday. I bid £140  +1 which allow them to bid one more bid to £150 if needs be. And like you got it for the higher amount.

The estimate was £130 - £150 . As it is the first time I have used this I am not sure how it works. Maybe next time I will bid live.

[Paulus 1,980]

1 hour ago, UPINSMOKE said:

I did the same for the first time yesterday. I bid £140  +1 which allow them to bid one more bid to £150 if needs be. And like you got it for the higher amount.

The estimate was £130 - £150 . As it is the first time I have used this I am not sure how it works. Maybe next time I will bid live.

What did you win Mick? I was going for a very nice 1888 DF and wondered if I was bidding against you, but I believe you have a keeper already ... 

[Taikonaut 50]

I got the invoice from DNW and the premium is way more than the 20% hammer price suggested by their T&C. It is close to just under 30%.

Does anyone know why that is so?

[UPINSMOKE 456]

1 hour ago, Paulus said:

What did you win Mick? I was going for a very nice 1888 DF and wondered if I was bidding against you, but I believe you have a keeper already ... 

Hi Paul,

            I did not go for what you were after. And you are correct I have a keeper all being graded at the moment. I went for lot 1471 and 1475 can't wait till they arrive will post pictures sometime.

[Rob 3,239]

8 minutes ago, Taikonaut said:

I got the invoice from DNW and the premium is way more than the 20% hammer price suggested by their T&C. It is close to just under 30%.

Does anyone know why that is so?

Depends on what you bought. 20% + VAT is the norm, but if it was an import from outside the EU then an additional 5% import VAT is applied and is identified by an x by the lot number. Which lot(s) are we talking about?

[UPINSMOKE 456]

16 minutes ago, Taikonaut said:

I got the invoice from DNW and the premium is way more than the 20% hammer price suggested by their T&C. It is close to just under 30%.

Does anyone know why that is so?

They charge you 20% buyers premium and then you have to pay VAT of 20% on that premium for example you bid and win at say £100 add the 20% buyers premium its £120 now add the 20% VAT on the buyers premium you end up with £124 to pay plus postage.

[Taikonaut 50]

And they also add VAT on Misc Amount whatever that means. I thought VAT were 17.5%?

[Rob 3,239]

5 minutes ago, Taikonaut said:

And they also add VAT on Misc Amount whatever that means. I thought VAT were 17.5%?

Misc Amounts are the few itemised things below the lots won (surcharges, insurance and post), and these are VAT liable items. VAT is 20% and has been since 2011.

[UPINSMOKE 456]

8 minutes ago, Taikonaut said:

And they also add VAT on Misc Amount whatever that means. I thought VAT were 17.5%?

The  Misc Amount is the VAT on the postage. VAT has been at 20% for some years now since 2012.

[mrbadexample 1,006]

4 hours ago, Paulus said:

What did you win Mick? I was going for a very nice 1888 DF and wondered if I was bidding against you, but I believe you have a keeper already ... 

Was that the regular or inverted 1? I had my eye on those, amongst many other things. Most of the lots I had my eye on went far too high for me but I picked up a couple.

[Paulus 1,980]

1 hour ago, mrbadexample said:

Was that the regular or inverted 1? I had my eye on those, amongst many other things. Most of the lots I had my eye on went far too high for me but I picked up a couple.

I was after the regular variety, looked choice to me and I do not yet have a keeper Arabic 1 of the series. I have little interest in 'varieties' such as the so-called inverted 1

[mrbadexample 1,006]

Just now, Paulus said:

I was after the regular variety, looked choice to me and I do not yet have a keeper Arabic 1 of the series. I have little interest in 'varieties' such as the so-called inverted 1

Quite. Just a missing serif after all. It did look nice, if I remember correctly the one you mean. I take it it went too high? Much of what I was interested in sailed away into the "much too expensive".

[1949threepence 3,368]

13 hours ago, UPINSMOKE said:

They charge you 20% buyers premium and then you have to pay VAT of 20% on that premium for example you bid and win at say £100 add the 20% buyers premium its £120 now add the 20% VAT on the buyers premium you end up with £124 to pay plus postage.

...and of course, it's VAT on the premium alone, not the hammer price of the item you've won...

Interesting that, as other auctioneers (seemingly) don't add on VAT to the premium - or if they do, it's already contained within the quoted premium amount. London Coins & Colin Cooke being examples. Which in purely net terms makes their premiums considerably lower than DNW, the more so because at 17% and 15% respectively, they are lower to start with.  

Spink's premium @20% plus VAT, is exactly the same as DNW.  

            

 

[1949threepence 3,368]

 

22 hours ago, Rob said:

You don't, but it would be out of character for them to fiddle the bids. If you listen to the commentary during the auction, they are quite open about conflicting bids and opening prices, also if there is a reserve they will say we need to start at such an amount. You also see the bids as they come in. Arguably someone could be bidding up their own item just as some do on eBay, but in this case wouldn't have the getout feature of eBay whereby you can make a second chance offer, so personally I wouldn't worry. The market is quite competitive and savvy. Enough people know the market value of something to say that many things will reach fair value.

Which is often massively out of kilter with the estimate parameters. I know this has been mentioed on here before, and whether it's some form of "inducement" to start the bidding, or whether it's genuine lack of market knowledge on the part of those who set the estimates, we don't know.     

[Rob 3,239]

And as St. James's, Baldwins, Morton & Eden......

Blame it on London. It is and has always been expensive to base yourself there. All things numismatic cost several times what they do elsewhere. Take a coin fair in say Bloomsbury. The cost of a table is over 5x that of one at Wakefield, but I bet I wouldn't do 5x the business if I attended, and that loss would be compounded by having to park and stay in a hotel. There's nothing cheap or cheerful about London which is best avoided.

In the case of auctions you can thankfully bid from your armchair, but the ability to view the lots beforehand has effectively been blocked for anyone living outside London. DNW used to be good as you could arrive at 8 o'clock and look at your lots in advance of the sale which was across the road. Now you have to do this in advance. Spink have always required viewing to be prior to the day of the sale and when I went to DNW in June to view, I called in at BSJ only to be told the lots wouldn't be ready until the day before the sale. What a waste of time.

[Rob 3,239]

3 minutes ago, 1949threepence said:

Which is often massively out of kilter with the estimate parameters. I know this has been mentioed on here before, and whether it's some form of "inducement" to start the bidding, or whether it's genuine lack of market knowledge on the part of those who set the estimates, we don't know.     

You have a choice. You can either set the estimate so that an opening bid which is 20% below market value becomes market value with the juice - and you get no competitive bidding. Or the estimate can be low which will entice people to bid competitively. You can also set the estimate above market value and will have to if the vendor has too high a reserve on it. Then you rely on a fool and their money to sell the lot, unless it is an unrecognised variety noticed by 2 specialists.

[1949threepence 3,368]

4 minutes ago, Rob said:

You have a choice. You can either set the estimate so that an opening bid which is 20% below market value becomes market value with the juice - and you get no competitive bidding. Or the estimate can be low which will entice people to bid competitively. You can also set the estimate above market value and will have to if the vendor has too high a reserve on it. Then you rely on a fool and their money to sell the lot, unless it is an unrecognised variety noticed by 2 specialists.

Oh sure, I get that, but I'm referring to, for example, estimates between £150 and £200, say, which finish at £850 hammer. That type of disparity. They are quite frequent. 

You can get a bidding war on any given item, which, to me, suggests one of two things. Either the estimate, for whatever reason, is set way too low, or the lot is one which several bidders happen to want and is either rarer than anticipated, or is much rarer in the grade offered, than originally judged.       

[Rob 3,239]

Personally, I would set the lower/upper estimates to 60/80% of perceived market value (book) and let it go from there. With the juice, that would put upper estimate at around book price. Baldwins made a fundamental mistake in my view of setting the lower estimate at 20% below book because it meant that to get something at 'fair value', whatever that means, you would have to be opening bidder. Any more and you would be paying over the odds.

Using my estimates, 150-200 would imply a value of 250. There are a lot of people willing to go twice book - we've all done that, and quite a few prepared to go higher still, so is it necessarily that high? After all, who is to say that the book adequately reflects demand. People seem anxious to point out when Spink book prices are too high, but omit to mention those that are too low compared to what people are prepared to pay, and are paying. Ultimately though, what something ends up at is outside the control of the auctioneer.

Since the millennium there has been a huge increase in the number of collectors and investors which has fuelled steep rises in the finite number of coins available. You can triple the number of collectors, but the number of desirable coins remains broadly the same. Sure the detectorists are excavating large numbers of coins, but these are mostly undesirable in collector terms with large numbers being fragments or otherwise damaged. Hobson's Choice is another matter, but that is rarely the case.

Edited September 16, 2017 by Rob