Maria Theresia Taler

[newheart]

Got this from a someone who was 'selling off their grandfathers coin collection'. Only paid a tenner. I know most are modern repros, but the discolouration between the lettering made me wonder if this might be older than the past decade. The photos do not show the patina very well. It is a shiny silver colour but there is signs of wear, especially to the reverse. Not magnetic. Found a great site about these but there is a lot of photos to work my way through.. http://www.theresia.name/en/index.html

I can hear the groans already, but I read everyone should have at least one of these in their collection! 

 

[Leo]

Well for ten quid you haven't done bad as that's pretty much bullion price! As long as it's silver of course.

As for the coin, it's been cleaned. That strips down a lot of its numismatic value, but regardless of that, all the time you are going to spend finding out when and how and where was it minted, and learning about it, is priceless.

BTW I know practically nothing about these coins. I may get one myself

[Rob]

Double the money will get you a mint one.

[newheart]

13 hours ago, Leo said:

Well for ten quid you haven't done bad as that's pretty much bullion price! As long as it's silver of course.

As for the coin, it's been cleaned. That strips down a lot of its numismatic value, but regardless of that, all the time you are going to spend finding out when and how and where was it minted, and learning about it, is priceless.

BTW I know practically nothing about these coins. I may get one myself

If it is silver! Is there an easy way to tell? The coin is 40mm and weighs 30g.

[newheart]

13 hours ago, Rob said:

Double the money will get you a mint one.

Yes but a mint one of what? I must admit it is the prettiest coin I have, and I would love another in mint condition, but I would have no idea how to tell if it would be worth more than bullion. Are these all over 100 years old or are some much more recent? I have been looking online but it is pretty baffling! One web site seemed to imply these are still being minted? I think I have a 'modern copy' but how modern is modern? Not expecting you to answer any of these questions Rob, just thinking out loud :-).

[mrbadexample]

Post good pictures (including the edge) here and you might get your answer. 

[newheart]

For anyone interested, I just found out that they do still mint these https://www.muenzeoesterreich.at/eng/Produkte/Maria-Theresa-Taler-proof 

[Rob]

If it is in mint condition and a 20th century striking it is going to typically sell for £20 give or take a bit, however the early ones would be worth considerably more in this grade. They have been made more or less continually since 1780, so the majority are modern restrikes. There is just over 3/4oz of silver in them, so an intrinsic value of just under a tenner at current silver prices. Paying twice that for a mint state piece is not unreasonable. If it is impaired though, I wouldn't bother full stop. 10 years ago the note in Krause said the mintage was up to about 800 million for all issues.

There are sites which go through the variations, but the one I was using now gives a 404 error message.

[newheart]

7 minutes ago, mrbadexample said:

Post good pictures (including the edge) here and you might get your answer. 

Thanks - I will do that!

[Leo]

7 hours ago, newheart said:

If it is silver! Is there an easy way to tell? The coin is 40mm and weighs 30g.

Throw it into the floor (carpet/ vinyl) and listen for the sound... It has a peculiar resonance that you don't get with CuNi

[Leo]

Of course there are more advanced methods but are probably not necessary. TBH the reverse looks like silver to me.

[Rob]

8 hours ago, newheart said:

If it is silver! Is there an easy way to tell? The coin is 40mm and weighs 30g.

30g is too much. Should be 28g or a midges over. 41mm is the correct diameter.

[newheart]

Hi Rob, You said "30g is too much. Should be 28g or a midges over. 41mm is the correct diameter. " Too much for what - a non sliver copy? btw Wiki says "The thaler is 39.5–41 mm in diameter". But everywhere I look I get different specification for this coin! I am not too worried about its provenance; it is a pretty coin and I like it. But I am curious to know more.

[mrbadexample]

I think you'll get so many different specifications because it's been minted for so long, in so many different places, that there will be variations. The weight should be pretty consistent though. Have you checked to see if yours is silver?

[newheart]

On 04/10/2017 at 11:05 PM, mrbadexample said:

I think you'll get so many different specifications because it's been minted for so long, in so many different places, that there will be variations. The weight should be pretty consistent though. Have you checked to see if yours is silver?

No I am not sure how to check if it is silver (I don't want to damage the coin). But I did just find this site http://opencurrency.com/3-quick-ways-to-help-tell-real-silver-from-fake-silver/ and did the 3 tests: Ring test, ice test, magnetism test. I compared 3 coins: very worn old 1819 British crown (presumed silver); 1953 commemorative QE2 crown (not silver); and the Maria Theresia Taler. The results were inconclusive to say the least!

Ring test: All 3 coins to my ears had a long pleasant bell-like ring when flicked in the air with my thumb nail

Ice test: The ice cube began melting the moment it was put on each coin with no appreciable difference.

Magnetism test: none of the coins were at all magnetic (I have a very strong large neodymium magnet)
 

Will look for other tests!

[Rob]

Could do a specific gravity test if you have accurate scales and a similarly accurate volumetric dispenser.

 

[newheart]

Hi Rob, yes I read about that - it looked pretty complicated and my scales are accurate only to 1g, not 0.1g. If I had spent a lot of money on this coin I would give it a go (but then, I doubt I would buy that expensive a coin on eBay!). 

I will live with the coin and see if it changes colour over time because I am pretty sure it has been cleaned. Cheers, Pete

[mrbadexample]

19 hours ago, newheart said:

 

Ice test: The ice cube began melting the moment it was put on each coin with no appreciable difference.

As I understand it it's not about the ice cube melting but the thermal conductivity of the metal. So when you hold the coin by the edges and put the ice cube in the middle you should feel the edges become cold almost immediately if it's silver. 

[newheart]

On 08/10/2017 at 11:15 AM, mrbadexample said:

As I understand it it's not about the ice cube melting but the thermal conductivity of the metal. So when you hold the coin by the edges and put the ice cube in the middle you should feel the edges become cold almost immediately if it's silver. 

Oh I see! Will have to try it again - thanks mrbadexample.

[newheart]

Tried the ice test using  mrbadexample's good example, and it makes more sense. The edges of a large nickel silver type modern crown take a lot longer to get cold (5+ seconds) whereas the edges of a real silver Crown from 1812 got cold within a couple of seconds. I am pleased to report the edges of my Maria Theresia Taler also cooled very quickly, a tiny bit slower than the crown but the diameter is larger. 

[mrbadexample]

It's not entirely conclusive, of course: it shows there is some silver, but not how much.

[Rob]

6 minutes ago, mrbadexample said:

It's not entirely conclusive, of course: it shows there is some silver, but not how much.

On balance though it is going to be mostly silver and kosher, or no silver and iffy.

 

[mrbadexample]

1 minute ago, Rob said:

On balance though it is going to be mostly silver and kosher, or no silver and iffy.

 

Yes, true enough I guess. Incidentally, do we know anything about the metal composition of the Chinese fake wreath crowns, for example? Are they using silver?

[Rob]

1 minute ago, mrbadexample said:

Yes, true enough I guess. Incidentally, do we know anything about the metal composition of the Chinese fake wreath crowns, for example? Are they using silver?

I would suspect not given the price of a typical thing on Alibaba is a quid or so. That doesn' cover the silver cost.

 

[mrbadexample]

2 minutes ago, Rob said:

I would suspect not given the price of a typical thing on Alibaba is a quid or so. That doesn' cover the silver cost.

 

Ahh, of course. Silly me.