Let's start at the very beginning ...bringing you all along

[DrLarry 443]

yes modern day version of stereographic projections offset and overlapped , Euclidean Geometry really 

[DrLarry 443]

once the skill exists it is as fast and as rapid as looking at any image aye, I like them too ......  interesting studies on optics early 17th C I believe following on from Ptolemy and Hipparchus of Nicaea 

[jelida 1,366]

1 minute ago, DrLarry said:

yes modern day version of stereographic projections offset and overlapped , Euclidean Geometry really 

They are very clever. Once you can ‘get’ the image, they are so clear and three dimensional. I have seen similar style posters for sale. Not everybody can see them......which might be your hint!😀 

Jerry

[DrLarry 443]

yes it might be ,,,,,some struggle and struggle for years and never see , I am going to try split image using a rhombus of iceland Spar it has interesting optical properties 

[Peckris 579]

Oh, it's "those" hidden 3D images - I only ever had limited success seeing the underlying image. I've tried these and it's not happening.

[DrLarry 443]

One is a wolf and the other a hand offering up a flower.  When I first saw them back in the early 80's I also would spend ages desperately trying to make out a dinosaur or some mythical beast.  IN time my eyes became used to pulling things out of what appeared to be the "noise" and now when I look at them it may take a couple of seconds longer than looking at any other image but they become clear very fast.

YOu are entering the FOrbidden Zone !!!!!!!!!!!!

YOU ARE AWARE YOU SHOULD NOT BE READING THIS!!!!  it is my thread and I advise you against going any further. 

I think today I made a breakthrough.  I have been going over my 1861 collection and thinking simple stupid my rule when looking for evidence knowing that not only is it me that must see what I am seeing , if correct someone must have also had to see it (other than me and one friend I have who also collects and can see the lions all the time now ) So today I tried oil immersion I remembered in Geology we would often use oil in a number of ways firstly to help with metal ore recognition a polished section is immersed in oil in order to reduce the internal refraction if I remember rightly and also we used it to calculate the specific gravity of minerals.  So I thought I would give it a go.  Oh how dearly I wish you could see what I see, it is a thing of such sublime beauty when you see it you will one day (I am sure I have faith in you all) see a level of beauty beyond  the surface and in to the coin .  I am not sure what it is that makes it appear so pleasing , whether it is the novelty of seeing it day after day or it is something in its meaning. ( I do not mean X Ray vision before any funny comments begin) The way the ribbons wind in on themselves and the method that the design uses to show the rotation of the lions head or the sensitivity of the lion to nose of Lamb or the way the Lions head becomes part then of a lambs head and or the way that the images morph in front of your eyes as the eye wanders for a fraction of a moment returning then to a similar place but not so often the exact same place, and you see something else.  Layer upon Layer of design folded in and through it is a truly remarkable thing.

Jerry you mentioned it is almost religious in it nature and yes I would 100% agree with you on that.  It is certainly magical.  The oil immersion works quite well I suppose it actively removes the glare and allows the surface to be see without the surface debris (almost) It shows very well the darker lines (which I refer to as sutures) that the coin face has over most of it and it helps pick out the forms.  I find my mind in these last few weeks capable of seeing it in much greater detail than I have previously and this method helps quite a lot.  I think that perhaps you maybe are not quite understanding what it is I am seeing and what makes up the design. ( and yes Jerry I know you still don't like the "How does it get there part") in any case you lot are not supposed to be reading this.  But in case you are I am going to explain how you too can see if in your microscopes as I believe this might be part of the problem.  It requires Binocular vision relying on the eye overlapping the pattern in order to be able to make it out, (no it is not like the magic eye pictures you cannot just go boss eyed relax and let the image come (they were discovered in the 70's with computers) although essentially the eye does do that all the time to some extent when building up a 3D image. 

So get yourself a few old pennies Victorian ones are the ones I have used mostly I prefer the n61 but recently found the 79 works nicely too (however do not expect to see it equally on all pennies) the ones that work the best are the ones that look as if they have fingerprints on them.  Now for me I like to brush the surface with a sable brush or remove as much of the surface grime if it is a mess with a cotton bud.  I know you dont like to touch these precious things , which is why you do it with old ones.  If you are gentle you will begin to see a series of black lines appear they look like the serrated edge of a saw and often form arcs which are thick at one end and thin within about half the width of the penny.  My favourite spot is the field on the reverse to the right of Britannia .  If you are courageous try a small amount of olive oil I am trying now with refined Linseed and rape and poppy see oil and sesame oil to see if one is better than the other.  

watch and with luck you will begin to see the images emerge (I am not guaranteeing you seeing it) but what you should look for are a series of very fine ribbon like meanderings like a snail trail a fraction of a mm thick they are usually darker.  The are like  the septal lines of an ammonite often  fine filamentous lines that join up over the surface of the coin.  A second type of line thicker than these also forms again it appears frilled and dark.  But they are not jet black so do not expect some crazy perfect creature to leap out.  But you have to ask yourself then the question "what are these lines?" well you do if you are me. What is the pattern they form.  Now I would not expect any of you to see them as I see (I have said that many times) but I am not giving up on you all just yet (and Threepence you should not even be reading this, you think it is a load of old shit so STOP READING NOW !!!)  that is unless you want to put in another tuppence ha'penny  's worth in.... but then you will be a ha'penny short of your usual monetary value. 

Eventually after looking at several 1000 coins and seeing the same old pattern over and over again always the same sequences and positioning in terms of the design (but not always in the same place on the coin face) you will eventually see it as clearly as you see those magic eye pictures.  Two themes intertwine The ribbons that strike across the coin face are a series of little men on horseback with a spear and a dragon. Shifted upper and lower and in a checker pattern the Lions and Lambs heads eventually will clear after a few hundred attempts.  YOu are lucky mind you I had to work it all out for myself I am "helping " you along by 2 years or maybe 3.  I know you don't want your coin club filled with the rantings of a silly fool but one day you might thanks me for my tenacity of spirit.  If even two or three of you see it and I mean the pattern lines not the meaning then that is a step forward.  

I don't really mind that none of you are reading this all I have to do is write it and that in itself makes me feel satisfied I have tried to help you.  I perhaps feel the empathy the lion feels for the Lambs as they snuggle into each other with such love and affection my heart always sings inside when I see the relationship.  Or you can take the position of the wicked St George who persists in Killing this poor Dragon across the coin over and over again (follow the spear).  This Passive Aggressive theme if found to be true may be part of the very nature of our western philosophical approach for if it is found that what I am telling you week in and week out is true the subliminal messaging is a terrifying prospect even if unintended.  But OH know I hear you cry a conspiracy theory .....no not at all I am sure the images are as I have said a security measure (thanks Jerry) the idea of Subliminal messaging was not even discovered until the 1950's.  But yet coins have been at the forefront of the most fundamental aspect of propaganda for nearly 3000 years. I am sure none of you could disagree with me on that one although I am sure you will.  I hope that if you do try rather than expect me to give you the answers you will have by now (if you look carefully enough) have seen the strange sutures and the dark lines.  The lucky ones may be able to make out the Larger Triangular shaped forms of the Lions heads relating to smaller triangular shaped forms the Lambs.  For the keen eyed you may see the horseman.  There is a good chance that if you follow to the right of the rose on the portrait and use your brush the horseman will appear the folded wings of the dragon are often seen in the serrated edges of the rose leaves.  I had thought that something more complex is going on here relating to a lost piece of the design A badge or pendent on the right breast which had the ST George Dragon directly underneath.  

 

[DrLarry 443]

so far sesame oil is best.   In this  example  remain focused on the lion in the centre first outlined by light lines.  At its nose is a lamb which is darker on some I will try get one for you below  Once your eyes have captured the scene of the centre section you can begin to follow the pattern around to the outstretched leg to the left the paw usually rests on the lap of Britannia (I dont know why but it is very common on about 60% of the images.  Up from the centre you can see the enlargement of the lion and down from it the lamb becomes part of the reducing sequence .  The the right a Larger head begins which borrows from the one to the left but the head has shifted by about 20 degrees and if you can hold that pattern you can follow the larger lion.  Always 100% there is a small sequence which is just to the right and up a little from the lap of Britannia of a full maned lion with lamb on two hind legs reaching up to the lions nose. These points of intersection always occur by following the intersections eventually you will be able to uncover the motif that fits each pattern group or (unit) I call them.  But dont worry if you cannot see all the units there in this are around 50 or so units with positioning that variries and associations.  There is also in this one the Horse rider zig zag as I call it but I will show you that tomorrow 

Edited July 21, 2018 by DrLarry

[DrLarry 443]

 here is the penny 1861 from which the new oil image was taken I was simply going through and though  random  coins sorting out my desk top and this is a nice example but I am sure I will find you exactly the same images showing the same serrated lines and cauliflower type dark and light lines on any number of pennies.   

 

There are at you can see no discernible scratches on this coin and these lines that radiate out are part of the pattern development they are not scratches .  The light and dark dendritic forms are variations in colour created by the overlapping of the pattern groups. There is a distinct mathematical relationship between the sizes of each successive head decreasing by 50 % each time and you can measure these in groups but once they reach a certain size the unit type shifts and the sequence is lost becoming then an increasing or decreasing unit in another direction. 

 

It is also very interesting when you apply the oil especially on the Green pennies whihc have porosity you can see the air being forced out of the suture and points allowing the oil to enter.  In the Green pennies this gives them a better chance to show the pattern than most.  It is for this reason that this pattern showed itself in the first place .  Once buried the variable porosity created by the pattern is attacked at differing rates allowing corrosion to bubble up along the pattern boundaries.  Only once you know the pattern does this apparent irregularity appear to have a regular pattern attached to it .  This may have a ramification in that it might allow us to be able to track the time and depth underground according to the rate of the corrosion and the overall acidity of the percolating ground waters. YOu might well say well if there is a date on a coin we know perhaps how long it has been buried but not necessarily we could guess at the degree of circulation but if there is a chemical reaction that is controlled by the "normal; pattern of soil PH it might help with the dating of archeological horizons 

 

 

Edited July 21, 2018 by DrLarry
further thoughts

[DrLarry 443]

In silver it works in the exact same way the oil gets into the pattern and you can watch as it emerges.  Making it a simple method for the authorities to recognise fake from the real thing.  I am going to start going back in time certainly it is in the 1817 Half crown and even in very worn examples the pattern emerges.  Of course what I had been doing the past couple of years was pushing oil from the brush into the surface.  I could never work out why when I went back to specimens I had previously examined I had to stimulate the image by brushing of course the oil had dried out.  I seems to be in the 1697 crowns and half crowns and shillings  ....Yes they do indeed the same suture like lines criss cross the surface and the same serrated forms outline the lions and the Lambs it is best with a heavier oil which begins to be absorbed over time (dont do it on very good coins ) there does seem to be a direct correlation between the amount of time the oil has to seep into the sutures. William III crowns show it very nicely there is for sure a very distinct variation in the porosity.  Of course the only true way to show this on the surface of a coin other than the direct images would be to use an electron microscope.  YOU may wonder how you can go to the very very small to the very large.  It seems to be a simple mathematical relationship of line to dots which is why I do not think this pattern just happened in the late 17th C I am going to keep pushing back see if I can find the origin 

Edited July 21, 2018 by DrLarry

[DrLarry 443]

Glass cutting oil works nicely on modern coins well early decimal at least so far the results are good in proof coins as well. 

[DrLarry 443]

I think it is pointless trying to show an interpretation of these strange patterns and lines so I think I will begin to show you in the same way I began to see it in a repeated pattern.  Perhaps then if I can show that the pattern is constant we can look at what it means and why.  

[jelida 1,366]

The images above do show a marked die clash of Victoria’s chin, lips and nose arising from Britannia’s  thigh region, see also images of two of my coins below. Do these contribute to the lines you are seeing?

Jerry

[DrLarry 443]

yes I know they do the clash is also present on the reverse when I first started looking I began collecting the die clashes that seem common in the 1860's pennies and half pennies and also in a few of the 61's and 88 (half penny to see it there was any correlation I have about 10 and whilst I can see that some of the shape may be emphasised by the lips and nose I discounted it by shear weight of numbers.  The only things it helps in my experience is to help direct my eye to the area.  What I am doing now Jerry is trying this oil immersion method the images do come out a lot clearer and I will just use this to go through all my 60s to 63's but I am glad you noticed that I remember in a conversation we had you had mentioned it and this made me look carefully.  I even could find  examples using the obverse if the profile could not easily be seen on the rev 's 

I wish it were that simple my life would be easier LOL

Thanks  

Edited July 24, 2018 by DrLarry

[DrLarry 443]

24 minutes ago, jelida said:

The images above do show a marked die clash of Victoria’s chin, lips and nose arising from Britannia’s  thigh region, see also images of two of my coins below. Do these contribute to the lines you are seeing?

Jerry

 

[DrLarry 443]

another few more months I think I will get there at least I can see the relationships now between the design motifs the key to understanding how it fits together ios the Ribbon like structure that often runs across between the two N's on the penny.  It makes up a thread like sequence and whilst they stand alone as a motif with their own specific design they add to or are part of the larger pattern.  There appears to be a repeated mathematical arrangement and in the images of just one example the units are Green and pink in reverse light and top of the lion in BLack below the lower line and the lambs to the side (pink or white depending if they are in reverse light or not)  is usually integrated in into the lower section of the two ribbons 

 

 luckily this ribbon is on almost all the examples I assume it's small size makes it an important building block it is a little like a rubik's cube once the pieces are understood I should be able to lock them in on each other 

 

Edited July 24, 2018 by DrLarry

[DrLarry 443]

On 7/24/2018 at 9:57 PM, DrLarry said:

 

The intriguing thing however Jerry is that you first coin shows a rather remarkable example of a large lions head in the field above the ship to the left of the N second N of penny. The second one also shows a nice example and this validates my view that the forms are unaffected by the die clash as the pale colouration of the left side of this lion form sits inside the dark line of the clash. In this one the left eye looking at the coin being over from the lips of the clash in line with the N lower

I am sorry I cannot get this image that clear it is taken from your lower resolution images of the first coin.  YOu can e mail me a larger one to larry@madaboutart.org and I will get a clearer image although even with low resolution the whole head of the lion at 3/4 looking to the right seems pretty clear to me ,  The lambs are to the side of the ship just above and outlined in white faint ghost lines. one looking out at 3/4 to the left although that I agree is less easy to see if you are not used to looking for them 

Edited July 25, 2018 by DrLarry

[DrLarry 443]

On 24/07/2018 at 9:57 PM, DrLarry said:

 

On 24/07/2018 at 9:57 PM, DrLarry said:

 

And the second not so defined but still filling most of the field the eye on the left directly over from the clash nose 

Edited July 25, 2018 by DrLarry

[Peckris 579]

For the first (and possibly last? ) time, I've actually seen one of your lion heads Larry. I've marked what I believe to be the salient features in Photoshop - not very well, but just so you know I've seen what you have:

[DrLarry 443]

yes exactly 

10 hours ago, Peckris said:

For the first (and possibly last? ) time, I've actually seen one of your lion heads Larry. I've marked what I believe to be the salient features in Photoshop - not very well, but just so you know I've seen what you have:

Please note that this image is taken from the pictures that Jerry provided and they are low resolution I would generally need about a 2-3 MG Pixel image to get reasonable results and well done for using photoshop.  I think the best way to edit the images I have discovered is simply to print them and draw around the said LIONS HEAD I admit this one in the coins Jerry has is actually quite a clear example but then again these coins are high quality as you would expect of Jerry I sadly have to find my creatures in less well endowed metal discs  The issue is that I having studied this for a long time can pick out the myriad of lions and Lambs that cover the coins from the 17th C onwards.  Although even in saying that I believe that it exists before this time I think it simply becomes more complex in coins onwards from this time.  The motif is often always the same and as I say I am close to unpicking the whole story but I am happy you have seen this quickly attained image.  I simply took it using my phone and pointing it at Jerry's coin....you can do the same in fact anyone can but I would like the title of "Leo-arnakism"  (Lion Lamb in Greek )  to stick please LOL 

PS there is one small error in your drawing the edges of the left side are NOT bound by the die clash lips 

[DrLarry 443]

As I have researched this phenomena for a long time now I have to realise that a "scratch is not always a scratch! " across the many hundreds if not thousands of coins I have found this in I have noticed that there is a repeat of elements of the design which become more and more apparent as the coin wears.  I shall try to explain what I mean and the significance it might well play in our appreciation of what constitutes a scratch or chop mark. but if correct I am saying that coins leave the mint with an underlying series of scratches, porosity, dots and chops hence they are an integral part of the coin.  Only during circulation do they begin to appear.  This fact may then have a profound implication for grading a coin (which is why I thought this would be of more interest to the coin forum ) it essentially means that you must know the pattern and disregard its effect before you can grade a coin because surface hairlines, pitting , and chops might be "part of the design" .  

AS I see it this "watermark" on the coins (a security property I believe) is imposed on the coin prior to die pressing. I believe that it is an additional process in minting.  Consider the planck planchets arriving from having been cut they stockpile and are then loaded onto a belt flat in large numbers and sent through an inking press which randomly imprints a part of the overall design which is held on the face of the roller under which they pass the coins are simultaneously rolled through the inking drum.  The design is imposed on both sides the coins  (there is always part of the sequence on both sides) The inking drum puts a thin variably thick image made up of dots, lines, pictograms  and then the coins are sent along to a chemical bath which chemically etches through the ink.  This is the exact same process used in preparing copper plate prints and has been known for hundreds of years.  Once coining becomes mechanised this process is much easier I think that prior to the mechanisation the image is printed on in ink and then sent to the chemical bath. 

Once the die pressing is complete I am not 100% sure but I believe that coins even since early mechanisation are washed with various chemicals and cleaned off.  The cleaning will have removed a lost of the acid but from this point on the process still continues.  By creating these variation in the porosity of the surface of the coins (etched) and the dots and incised lines which now sit below the lustre of the coin they will in circulation be acted upon in a haphazard way as they are passed from hand to hand and sit in the organically rich pockets or purses of the owners.  this will act in a random way to corrode the surface of the coin.  However luckily for us coins get lost and buried.  Ground water and organic and carbonic acids percolate over the coins surface and acts upon the surface of the coin in a more specific environment concentrated along the less ristent (etched) areas.  It was then the advent of metal detecting coins that gave me the first opportunity to observe this phenomena.  

It was clear from the onset that this showed a repeat of the pattern but that the position of the various units varied from coin to coin, hence the need for randomness into the concept provided I think by rolling the coins through the inking rollers prior to etching.  Some coins do show the phenomena better than others; why is this? I believe that two factors are at work here.

The first is which part of this motif is printed onto the coins: let me explain.  The eye can pick out pattern very easily is the pattern is a certain size it is for example much easier to see the images that are smaller and more discreet and also if there is any part of the design of the image that might approximate to the imprinted device.  So the shield has the cross bars and oval shape that can approximate to the head of the large lion in the shield.  Interestingly these filamentous lines and dots that appear to be unrelated to the coin design cuit across the die pressed design as they meander and are scattered across the coins face (these are etching marks a little like trace fossils in sedimentary rocks (the tracks and traces of an animals activity like walking, gliding over muddy substrates )  you have to find and interpret them to get back to the animal to which they belong.  Or in the drapes within the penny part of the design has a lion reaching down and licking the lambs head. The fact that the design on portraits, in reverses sometimes match up with the "lion Lamb/rider image) seems more than a coincidence.  If this is the case then I think it might be safe to assume that the engravers of coins (often employees of the mint) might well hold knowledge of the device and the images it creates and must create an image that incorporates elements of it.  Until 1850s when the job is made redundant. 

The second variable might be the amount of time coins sit in the chemical bath.  If during mechanised coining a stream of coins leaves the rollers two possible routes might alter the image. either they sit in the air with the etching ink on them (I have not investigated if this ink in itself has corrosive properties)  but the environment of the minting process must be a pretty toxic one steams oils, humidity, acidity and heat all contributing to surface alterations no matter how small. the other alternative is that coins are sent straight to the bath this of course would mean that some sat in the bath longer than others and hence may have deeper corrosion by the etching fluids. In fact there are so many variables and this in part can be as important as any other to the process. 

So what is the purpose of this convoluted process?  That in itself is a more complex issue.  We have to consider the very nature of the themes of the two motifs found in later coins : The Lion Lamb and the rider with dragon.  the symbolism of these two motifs is simple but at the same time complicated and is perhaps best considered separately.

All of this is pure supposition and speculation of the worst type. I have little or no references to the methods employed by the mint and neither really does anyone else.  There are parts of the minting process that have , as far as I understand it , that have always been kept secret from the public for the security and integrity of the Royal Mints licence to print money.  However something should be said here about the reasoning behind this device for as many have mentioned if it cannot be seen how is it a security.  Well even if something is seen that does not negate the fact that most of us could not produce it (the holographic or design elements of notes attest to this) but I think security in coinage is a little more complicated paper is easier to copy maybe but in the times of Newton's involvement the coinage problems were a matter of state significance. It is my belief that to "de-code" this motif is an important requirement of a security device.  If not what's the point. But most state systems rely on a limited number of people knowing state secrets and also making sure that each person knows only part of a secret.

The rise of the banks took over from the moneyers (part of the goldsmiths guild) in collecting money and depositing it.  I surmise again with absolutely no evidence that this motif could easily be decoded if you know it is there. If you are directed to a part of the coin a drop of oil or a gentle rub will disclose it.  Each collecting house might know some part of the whole but never the whole, the objective is to locally identify forged coins so that a task force can investigate the passing of money within a region and so crack down on forgeries. I have mentioned before that money circulating in the lower levels of an economy that is faked is of less importance to the governments until such money reaches a certain level and the treasury ends up with junk.  Thus we have a situation common even today or recently that allows for forgery to an extent.  That extent is decided upon at a macro level not always at the microeconomic level.  

Oh dear is this the worst kind of fake history?  if so I am sorry I do not have the access to the kind of research or information which might render it real. As Jerry says it is a wild speculation convoluted and constructed.  But as it stands this is part of the best I can thus far imagine to be the case.  (the fear I feel in submitting this you can only imagine.....please just consider the implication if I am correct before attacking me) Also this is a WORKING HYPOTHESIS it is the basis from which something can grow. 

 

Edited July 26, 2018 by DrLarry

[DrLarry 443]

There is an interesting aspect of coins that also helps in many ways to see this pattern.  Many examples of coins exist which appear to show "finger prints" on the surface I assume the reasoning is that if a coin is handled fresh the acids from hands quickly react with the surface.  This may or may not be the case what is does do in my experience is highlight the underlying pattern which radiates in a similar way to the wavy lines of the finger print but what usually happens is that the "fingerprint" cuts across and hence giving a speckled effect. I am not certain they are always fingerprints though. 

[1949threepence 3,368]

OK, so as I said in the thread on what your collection did for you last year , I did actually contact the Royal Mint about this issue, under an FoI request. Personally, I don't believe there are any underlying images deliberately placed underneath the main design of coins, but you never know. Stranger things have emerged, and it's always worth getting the official viewpoint. What I can't see is any logical reason for doing it, especially on what would have been, even then, low value items like pennies. We know there were contemporary counterfeits at the time, which would not have been difficult for the trained eye to spot. 

The other obvious question is what would be the point of implanting such subtle images if the public was unaware of them? Genuine question. Everybody has always known about images and marks placed in banknotes to make them difficult to fake, and before the modern designs, the silver strip - as a known deterrent. So why go to such lengths with pennies, in secret? 

Anyway, here is my enquiry, and their reply. The respondent does say that she can't say what the images might be without seeing the coins. So it may be worth @DrLarry sending some off for comment. I certainly don't see any other way of convincing many people of the idea's credence without some official nod in its direction.

 

 

•  

Quote

 

• Dear 

 

Thank you for your Freedom of Information Request, which has been passed on to the Royal Mint Museum by our colleagues in the Royal Mint’s Collector Service Department.

 

We can confirm that hidden watermarks have never been applied to United Kingdom coins. It would be difficult to say what the markings are on the coins without seeing them.

 

Yours sincerely

Fiona

 

Fiona Trumper

Public Engagement and Information Officer

Royal Mint Museum

fiona.trumper@royalmintmuseum.org.uk
............................................................................

The Royal Mint Museum

Llantrisant, Pontyclun

CF72  8YT

United Kingdom

............................................................................

Tel: +44 (0) 1443 623124 (Direct)

Tel: +44 (0) 1443 222111 (Switchboard)

http://www.royalmint.com 

 

 

From: 
Sent: 18 July 2018 21:09
To: Collector Services
Subject: Freedom of Information Act request

 Hi,

I contribute to a coin forum, and a topic has emerged which questions whether any sort of hidden watermark, possibly in the form of an animal image, such as a lion or lamb, has been concealed underneath the main strike of a coin, on either obverse or reverse, as a form of watermark, possibly to verify whether or not a coin is genuine. Or maybe some other reason.

Some contributors have said that such images can be seen when a coin becomes worn.

Are you able to comment on whether this may have happened, in the past. Underlying images have been detected from pennies as old as those minted in 1860.

There is currently no hard evidence to support this possibility, hence the FOI request. 

Thank you.

Kind Regards,

 

 

         

 

 

 

[PWA 1967 2,207]

i bet Fiona thought you were winding her up Mike or bonkers.

A hidden watermark such as a lion or a lamb 

[DrLarry 443]

1 hour ago, 1949threepence said:

OK, so as I said in the thread on what your collection did for you last year , I did actually contact the Royal Mint about this issue, under an FoI request. Personally, I don't believe there are any underlying images deliberately placed underneath the main design of coins, but you never know. Stranger things have emerged, and it's always worth getting the official viewpoint. What I can't see is any logical reason for doing it, especially on what would have been, even then, low value items like pennies. We know there were contemporary counterfeits at the time, which would not have been difficult for the trained eye to spot. 

The other obvious question is what would be the point of implanting such subtle images if the public was unaware of them? Genuine question. Everybody has always known about images and marks placed in banknotes to make them difficult to fake, and before the modern designs, the silver strip - as a known deterrent. So why go to such lengths with pennies, in secret? 

Anyway, here is my enquiry, and their reply. The respondent does say that she can't say what the images might be without seeing the coins. So it may be worth @DrLarry sending some off for comment. I certainly don't see any other way of convincing many people of the idea's credence without some official nod in its direction.

 

 

•  

 

         

 

 

 

yes as I mentioned it would have been much easier if you had presented the question in such a way as to present the idea without the "watermark" reference but I am happy you got the result that you wanted.  

What is it exactly that you want me to do with the free information your attained ...exactly?  Once I have completed the work I will produce a document and provide them with all the photographic empirical evidence.  I would have done so I am sure at some point once the work is completed.  

Would you p[refer me not to post on your forum any more of the evidence ?  This seems to be the ultimate goal of your approach? 

I will always go with empirical evidence more than a response especially if the device has some practical value to the mint.  

What I will show is that the pattern repeats itself , that it has a mathematical relationship and I will show the relationship of the design elements.  Whether or not the design purports to be Lion and Cub, Lion and Lamb, rider is really just a matter of explanation in attempting to make sense of the pattern form.  In ujust the last few days looking at the random examples Jerry has posted I have managed to show one format of the pattern so that others can see that it is not a random pattern.  

Rather than relying on my empirical evidence I have given all the information to the forum of how they might also see examples in their own collection using simple tools.  I rarely believe other peoples work until I can see it for myself in my own environment perhaps during the balmy nights of August other forum members might look.  

 

Edited July 27, 2018 by DrLarry

[1949threepence 3,368]

16 minutes ago, DrLarry said:

yes as I mentioned it would have been much easier if you had presented the question in such a way as to present the idea without the "watermark" reference but I am happy you got the result that you wanted.  

What is it exactly that you want me to do with the free information your attained ...exactly?  Once I have completed the work I will produce a document and provide them with all the photographic empirical evidence.  I would have done so I am sure at some point once the work is completed.  

Would you p[refer me not to post on your forum any more of the evidence ?  This seems to be the ultimate goal of your approach? 

I will always go with empirical evidence more than a response especially if the device has some practical value to the mint.  

 

It's your call what you do with it, if anything. Just as it is your choice whatever else you choose to post on the topic. Unless you can present some credible evidence to support your assertions, my interest in the topic is now at an end. It was you who started the thread, Larry, so I don't think it's unreasonable to expect that your ideas will be cross examined and questioned. Better that, I'd imagine, than it being completely ignored. It's not my forum by the way, it's a common resource for the good of all of us.     

I have a probing, analytical mind and when a question is posed, I like to get to the bottom of it - as far as is possible at any rate. On this occasions I felt it was a good way forward to ask the RM for their view, or possible historical record, which I did in a wholly objective and unbiased way. 

Anyway, for better or worse we now know what their view of the matter is.