1862 Half Penny 7+G No rocks left of LH?

[Paddy]

I found a bunch of Victorian Halfpennies in reasonable condition recently. Going through them to check for varieties, I came across this one, which seems different. It should be 7+G on the Freeman system, but all the other reverse Gs I have seen have a large rocky outcrop to the left of the Lighthouse and above the sea line - this has nothing there. Is it just the result of a blocked die or is it a different reverse?

 

[Paddy]

... Close up of rocks area:

 

[DrLarry]

I'm not sure but I think I also have one without the rock on the left side. I have tended to go through looking for repairs and over prints. 

[DrLarry]

The one I have has the rock cut away. I find that I have not assigned a die to any I have yet but there is a large removal up against the inner circle I'm not sure if this is normal 

[DrLarry]

both of mine have the little door at the base of the lighthouse and there is a large section removed in the first the is just gone and the second it exists in tiny sections but the same scaring and cut away at the horizon touching the inner circle 

[DrLarry]

I will keep looking for you 

On 6/19/2018 at 3:19 PM, Paddy said:

... Close up of rocks area:

 

 

[DrLarry]

but then as I type that I have another with the door and the rock is there 

[Paddy]

1 minute ago, DrLarry said:

but then as I type that I have another with the door and the rock is there 

The door seems to be a good indicator for reverse G, which as I understand it should be the norm for 1862 unless it also has a very rare Die letter (A, B or C). So I would expect al to be reverse G - but there seems to be a reasonable proportion without the rocks - hence the query. Is it a different reverse, or just a blocked die on a normal G?

 

[DrLarry]

8 minutes ago, Paddy said:

The door seems to be a good indicator for reverse G, which as I understand it should be the norm for 1862 unless it also has a very rare Die letter (A, B or C). So I would expect al to be reverse G - but there seems to be a reasonable proportion without the rocks - hence the query. Is it a different reverse, or just a blocked die on a normal G?

 

from the quick scan of 40 here easily accessible, 2 with the door have no rock one has a fragment and interestingly there is a large chunk out of the inner circle on one ....  I am going to take your word on the reverse type mostly certainly some of mine are missing the rock, negligent of me I had not checked if this had any significance.  To me looking at the samples I have which I sadly cannot post yet my phone went dead the rock has been cut away the same scar exists on both examples but the two have a chunk missing either from the inner circle or the horizon. hard to know if either or i will look more closely.  I would look at more for you sir but I am trying to stay away from 1862 and 1861 half pennies , I am a bit of an addict.   

[DrLarry]

the removal of the inner circle here may play some significance if the area has been ground perhaps there appears to be some change whether deliberate or not i cannot say.  Let me know if any of that helps I can look more if you need any other help I would say at those numbers it is about 5-8% with no rock unless of course I selected them subconsciously thinking they looked different.  I try to hold too many differences in my head these days LOL

[DrLarry]

oh I have just noticed one which may confirm that there is one with no rock intentionally like the one you show this one shows a very sharp straight line to the horizon and it most obviously has been cut that way like a small ramp when the phone is charged I will imagine it and add it,  Again having done little academic allocation of the die number I would say that there is a type without rock and several transitionals 

[DrLarry]

here you go 

[DrLarry]

it seems to be on a 62 that shows the F over a rotated F or a P (but of course it cannot be a P ) but there is a little raised loop I will show you later 

Edited June 20, 2018 by DrLarry

[DrLarry]

it may or may not be relevant but the date has also been altered there is the scar of the 2 to the left of the 2 on mine slightly larger and lower and not overlapping with the 2 in the date and this "new" two is very crisp.  There seem to be many I have noted where a slender 2 is overstamped by another 2 with several "bits" sticking out , perhaps the die weakened and had to be re-ground below was restamped weakening the point against the circle which then had to be ground as bits broke off.   

[Paddy]

Wow, @DrLarry you have got your teeth into this one! Has anyone else noted this missing rock pile before?

Thanks for all your help.

 

[DrLarry]

I dont really know I have never come across anyone having looked at it.  I have to honest with you Paddy and say I noted it before but I just never read much about it.  Certainly there does seem to be some alteration of all the letters up the side.  The only problem with this I have is why on earth would you not remodel that ugly lighthouse at the time, but perhaps it acts as a buffer to prevent damage to the Britannia.  I enjoy sharpening my teeth my friend.  

if not you better register it, as I say I have not looked in any or either Peck or Freeman half pennies appear not to be sexy enough for most.  Personally I love them I think I have 10 or 12 error types on my list for each the 1861 and 62.  who do you tell ?  

12 minutes ago, Paddy said:

Wow, @DrLarry you have got your teeth into this one! Has anyone else noted this missing rock pile before?

Thanks for all your help.

 

 

[DrLarry]

here is the 2 lost 

[Paddy]

6 minutes ago, DrLarry said:

I dont really know I have never come across anyone having looked at it.  I have to honest with you Paddy and say I noted it before but I just never read much about it.  Certainly there does seem to be some alteration of all the letters up the side.  The only problem with this I have is why on earth would you not remodel that ugly lighthouse at the time, but perhaps it acts as a buffer to prevent damage to the Britannia.  I enjoy sharpening my teeth my friend.  

if not you better register it, as I say I have not looked in any or either Peck or Freeman half pennies appear not to be sexy enough for most.  Personally I love them I think I have 10 or 12 error types on my list for each the 1861 and 62.  who do you tell ?  

 

No idea! I presume if there is anyone hot on the topic, they will take note and maybe add it to a later publication. But as no one seems too interested in Half Pennies at the moment, I suspect there is no one to do it...

 

[DrLarry]

when I have found a new something or other I did get in touch with someone who will be putting together the freeman editions in the future and they did note down the errors and said it would get listed, (not your rock I hasten to add ) that is your rock and you must now carry it  off into your own ownership LOL  .  I will have about 20 alterations for the two as I mentioned many of them re-punches and perhaps that will swell the coffers of the half penny market a little.  I find them useful in allowing me to see my patterns ...more so often than pennies and cheaper  .....LOL

[Paddy]

6 minutes ago, DrLarry said:

when I have found a new something or other I did get in touch with someone who will be putting together the freeman editions in the future and they did note down the errors and said it would get listed, (not your rock I hasten to add ) that is your rock and you must now carry it  off into your own ownership LOL  .  I will have about 20 alterations for the two as I mentioned many of them re-punches and perhaps that will swell the coffers of the half penny market a little.  I find them useful in allowing me to see my patterns ...more so often than pennies and cheaper  .....LOL

Who?

 

[Rob]

23 minutes ago, Paddy said:

Wow, @DrLarry you have got your teeth into this one! Has anyone else noted this missing rock pile before?

Thanks for all your help.

 

I have one which I bought in 2005 for this very reason. It was in a NGC 65 slab, 2750257-017. I don't know if it is imaged on their site.

[DrLarry]

good question someone at reprographics I think the email address was in the freeman book the newer version from a couple of years back. 

[DrLarry]

sorry rotographics 

[Paddy]

14 minutes ago, Rob said:

I have one which I bought in 2005 for this very reason. It was in a NGC 65 slab, 2750257-017. I don't know if it is imaged on their site.

Thanks @Rob the NGC site confirms the details but has no pictures.

@Chris Perkins - are you interested in this sort of new variation for later reprints of Freeman (or otherwise)?

 

[Mr T]

Prone to fill? I don't have any 1862 halfpennies but the reverse G image in Freeman doesn't appear to show a full crop of rocks compared to Malcolm Lewendon's reverse G (though neither of those images are of an 1862 halfpenny - they're 1867 and 1864 respectively).