1773 farthing with overdate - 3 over 7 ? New variety ?

[JLS]

Hello all. 

I picked up this farthing recently. It looks like an unambiguous 3/7 overdate on the last numeral, with the same reverse die as Colin Cooke #364 (look at the open topped B in BRITANNIA). However, the obverse die has a stop after Rex, unlike Colin Cooke's example. Is this die pairing known ? Any information would be much appreciated - I've looked through recent auction results without any success. 

[JLS]

Obverse. 

[Rob]

Dies were not usually swapped in pairs. When one die broke it was replaced and production continued. This provides useful chronology for the dies as it allows you to establish the order in which they were used, which in turn may give possible timing information. Stop or no stop, it is unlikely to add anything, particularly as stops fill easily and no stop varieties are frequently not as claimed.

[Michael-Roo]

 

3 hours ago, JLS said:

Hello all. 

I picked up this farthing recently. It looks like an unambiguous 3/7 overdate on the last numeral, with the same reverse die as Colin Cooke #364 (look at the open topped B in BRITANNIA). However, the obverse die has a stop after Rex, unlike Colin Cooke's example. Is this die pairing known ? Any information would be much appreciated - I've looked through recent auction results without any success. 

 

There's something there with the 3, but the reverse die doesn't match Cooke's 364.

364: first leg of the second N points to the wrist. End of spear points to the one. There is a space between the two sevens, etc. 

Edited April 16, 2019 by Michael-Roo

[JLS]

13 minutes ago, Michael-Roo said:

 

 

There's something there with the 3, but the reverse die doesn't match Cooke's 364.

364: first leg of the second N points to the wrist. End of spear points to the one. There is a space between the two sevens, etc. 

Yes - you're right. I'm still something of a novice with these varieties - didn't notice the displacement of the legend on mine. On my coin, it does look like a 3 over 7 to me in hand. At least I think I can see the top left serif of the 7 on the top left of the 3 of the date. 

[Michael-Roo]

 

Re. 3 over 7:

Not sure to be honest.

Even though worn, your coin shows evidence of having been struck from very tired dies. Might it be yet another case of chipping/cud?*

Look at how obvious the overstrike is on Colin Cooke's coin, both digits are clear.

Note also the horizontal bar of the 7 is in line with that of the 3. On your coin what may be an underlying horizontal bar is lower, and sticking out slightly on the right.

 

*(Chipping Cud, isn't that one of those places where the entitled hold their kitchen suppers? )

 

[Michael-Roo]

 

PS: Actually, looking at it again, your coin may be a decent contemporary counterfeit. There are a several described as 'fish lips' portrait, and yours possibly fits the bill (or should that be fits the lips).

Any opinions regarding this are welcomed.

Edited April 16, 2019 by Michael-Roo

[JLS]

1 hour ago, Michael-Roo said:

 

PS: Actually, looking at it again, your coin may be a decent contemporary counterfeit. There are a several described as 'fish lips' portrait, and yours possibly fits the bill (or should that be fits the lips).

Any opinions regarding this are welcomed.

Weight is 4.56 grams, which seems a bit heavy for a fake farthing in my experience. But the lips do look a bit "fishy" so I'm questioning it myself.