The most important copper coinage debate

[damian1986 143]

What are the most important coins in telling the story (in terms of history and numismatics) of the copper and bronze coinage of Britain?

There's no one answer, but this thread would neatly tie a fair few together. Couple of ideas

• The Droz and Kuchler patterns of the early Soho period as a precursor to the steam powered coinage of 1797 onwards.
• The H and KN bronze pennies where the mint contracted out some of its output
• The Gillick 1st-issue E1 obverse where the designs were put out to competition (which didn't really happen prior to this?)
• Any example of the datal overstrikes giving some indication of how the dies were prepared, amended and 'evolved' 
• Pistrucci's G4 farthings... on the basis of their excellent and actually-not-very-British workmanship 
• The rose farthings with brass wedges to deter counterfeiting
• Some specific combination of dies in the bunhead coinage -- as to which beyond pre- and post-obverse 9 (older features) I couldn't answer that one

'tis a bit quiet here at the minute so hopefully get a few ideas from you lot thrown in here 😋

Peter - do put a case forward for an Anne farthing or the 1860 😛

[1949threepence 3,368]

Probably the changeover from copper to bronze in 1860, and all the patterns/variants for that year. Including an 1860/59 copper penny, now very rare and much sought after.  

[Peter 615]

There are also 1860 1/4d's cu YH currency and proof and 1864 proof ditto.

[blakeyboy 1,811]

1853  to  1857,   5 and 10 Centimes struck in Marseilles under supervision by Heatons,

showing what they could do in bronze whilst everyone else was producing copper.....

[oldcopper 286]

Heaton were also producing most of our regal copper coinage in these years.

[Rob 3,221]

The Elizabeth I Irish copper penny and halfpenny of 1601 which was the first attempt to introduce the metal, followed by the Harington issues in mainland Britain.

[Michael-Roo 783]

 

The introduction of recognisably modern era base metal coins in 1672 would have to be included on any list.

To this day the Charles II farthing, simple, uncluttered, remains an example of good design.

Edited June 3, 2019 by Michael-Roo

[Peter 615]

Was this the Swedish copper? What dismayed me  is the cu from 1694-1701 of which I have the lot but quite frankly ugly. At least the Anne patterns got better and then we reached the fantastic 1717-24...my favourites. Mr Croker take a bow.

[Michael-Roo 783]

 

Which toned down to that beautiful milk chocolate colour we see today.

I agree Peter, the George I coppers are probably my favourites too, and which I consider to just pip the Charles II issue for overall design. 

The point I was making earlier was how the coppers introduced in 1672 were so radically different in appearance to those which came before and so can be seen as the first issue of a modern looking coinage (and yes, I know silver was issued in the 1660s but Damian's topic relates specifically to copper ).

[oldcopper 286]

1 hour ago, Peter said:

Was this the Swedish copper? What dismayed me  is the cu from 1694-1701 of which I have the lot but quite frankly ugly. At least the Anne patterns got better and then we reached the fantastic 1717-24...my favourites. Mr Croker take a bow.

IMO it doesn't help that so little of the 1694-1701 coinage exists today in the higher grades - the usual bad production values and wear. A fully struck up and unworn W&M or William III final issue 1/2d (1699-1701) are magnificent. The trouble is the only fully detailed W&M halfpennies are the proofs (and the best 1694 proofs have virtually vanished since the Nicholson sale of 2004) and only a handful of exceptional currency pieces exist.

The George I dump 1/2's are easier to find fully struck up and are neat coins I agree but the 2nd issue (plain strap) is very difficult and more often than not poorly struck on the laurels/hair, not so appealing thus. I've never really enjoyed the GI 1/4's as much but again the dumps and their proofs are generally the best struck and most appealing.

IMO again, Roettier's and William Wyon's Britannias are definitely the most beautiful ones.

[Michael-Roo 783]

5 hours ago, Rob said:

The Elizabeth I Irish copper penny and halfpenny of 1601 which was the first attempt to introduce the metal, followed by the Harington issues in mainland Britain.

Reading this I thought: 'I'm sure I have one of those somewhere.'

Found it.

1.7g. 19-20mm at the widest point. Is it a penny or halfpenny?

 

[Rob 3,221]

Penny

[Michael-Roo 783]

 

Thanks.

[damian1986 143]

Some useful suggestions in here.

I like the suggestions in and around the mainland Britain issues such as the anglo-irish penny and half penny, and the Napoleon III Birmingham mint bronzes.

On the latter, it's said that "Birmingham mint pioneered the bronze coinage", but I see coins of the Paris mint dated 1952 but only 1953 onwards for Marseille. Did the Heaton's pioneer the coinage, or merely support that Marseille mint in something that was already being done in the French capital??

[Peter 615]

Going against the grain 

I hanker after Woods coins and amassing a few.The sweep of the right hand stands out.

[copper123 1,556]

I would have a stab at the rose farthings - there are many options though  and its only a matter of opinion

Amazing after all these years we are not sure exactly how they were made

[damian1986 143]

8 hours ago, copper123 said:

I would have a stab at the rose farthings - there are many options though  and its only a matter of opinion

Amazing after all these years we are not sure exactly how they were made

I have a couple of rose and at least something in the series for every issuer and main type (currently at about 10 coins total), but the goal is to have at least one of every Peck subtype - the 'type 3' Rose farthings are looking like they will be tricky to obtain; since-discovered or Everson types may play a part but this will come together over time. 

The series seems quite tough full stop as they aren't really ever going to set the world alight, so get buried in any auctions where I saw them for sale, until a farthing specialist sells or a kind forum member drops a high grade one under your nose... Colin G got me a nice Harrington type 2 Peck 54 ex Lingford, ex Rogers and most the rest came from Rob with excellent provenance.