1860 penny Freeman 14. LCW below foot.

[1949threepence 3,368]

On 2/25/2021 at 5:42 PM, blakeyboy said:

Since the start of Covid,  'data' has been referred to as a plural, strangely, after decades of everyone getting it wrong...

'Referenda' seems to have vanished now, thank heaven, replaced by 'referendums', but remember that we are often not the arbiters of good usage:

 in US supermarkets one till/checkout is labelled '15 items or fewer', quite correctly, instead of using 'less',

and it can easily be argued that 'math' is the correct abbreviation of 'mathematics', and not 'maths'.....

I always thought that "data" was one of those words, like "sheep", which acted both as singular and plural. Just looked it up and it appears that "data" is, as you say, the plural, and "datum" the singular - who knew? Well obviously you did, but I must plead ignorance as I have never once heard the word "datum" before.

Now I know.  

 

[blakeyboy 1,811]

i always knew the word 'datum' as the first point on a drawing etc that you were happy with, and did all other measurements from there.

 

I never linked it to 'data' for years!!

[blakeyboy 1,811]

Oxford Reference state 'Referendums', but say 'referenda' is often used.....

I still say 'referenda' is tricky, since it is mainly used by people who think it's simple matter  like 'stadium', and think they are showing off......

 

[blakeyboy 1,811]

This is the problem, I feel......getting irritated by the pompous.

It boils down to that.  I find a lot of people in my work whose hubris is astonishing,

when it's all castles on sand.

Why is this? Ignorance? Following the herd- FOMO?  Insecurity? Small genitals?

 

 Who knows, but the older ( and hopefully wiser) I get, the easier it is to spot,

and this can save an enormous amount of time and effort because you can simply then do business 

with those clients who aren't idiots, however famous and wealthy the idiots are.

 

If you are going to quote, quote.

If you want to quote, but are unsure,  go find out.    Sorry!  Go AND find out....see how Americanisms can creep in?

So- you don't hear anyone saying  'I knew him, Horatio', or 'All that glisters',  or 'Stuff that dreams are made on'

because they don't know that's what the Great Man wrote, and go with the popular saying.

Is this wrong? In it's simple form, I don't feel it is.  Language usage evolves, and you  HAVE to run with it.

 

Americans saying AWESOME all the time may be bloody annoying,  but we say AWFUL without batting an eyelid.....

 

[Bronze & Copper Collector 417]

This is an intriguing thread, which makes me want to bring up two issues.

 

1)    My personal pet peeve is regarding those that say “I COULD care less”.

I have always said “I COULDN’T care less” inasmuch as it, to me, is more logical.

If you could care less, then it has at least some modicum of importance to you.

If you couldn’t care less, then it is of the absolute least possible importance to you.

Yet, for some reason, both are used interchangeably, and accepted as meaning the same thing.

 

2)    Being neither a student nor scholar in either languages in general or specifically in Latin, I would ask whether the fact that the various Latin words in question are used in a sentence written in English would have any bearing on the issue.

Would the Latin words that have entered the English language be subject to the rules of Latin Grammar or the rules of English grammar, or would a combination of correct Latin grammar and common English usage be the ultimate determinant of acceptable use?

Would this be considered to be within the guidelines for the accepted evolution of a language?

 

[Nick 329]

Personal bugbears are:

• haitch rather than aitch
• could of rather than could have or could've
• tautologies such as various different
• another thing coming rather than another think coming

Amongst many others...

[bagerap 706]

I come from probably the last generation of grammar school kids to be taught Latin and Greek as part of the standard curriculum. This possibly helped to shape my future as I went on to study language and subsequently linguistics. Latin was a constant help to me learning some of the Romance languages but Attic Greek? Not really a great deal of help in the modern world. That was until I went with my girlfriend of the time for a holiday just outside of Corinth. She worked with a Greek girl and we were to deliver a present to the Greek lasses mum in Athens. Well, it made for a nice day out and we could see a few bits of ancient architecture. This was all before the days of Google maps and all we had was an address. Written in English. Spotting a tourism kiosk, I asked if they had a street map.Voila, easy as that. Opened it up and easily found the street we were looking for. Why? Because the bloody map was in English. It was at this point that my long forgotten education kicked in as I realised that I could actually read the Greek road signs.

Didn't help much when we later met Sophia's mum, as I still hadn't mustered a single word of demotic Greek.

[blakeyboy 1,811]

8 hours ago, Bronze & Copper Collector said:

This is an intriguing thread, which makes me want to bring up two issues.

 

1)    My personal pet peeve is regarding those that say “I COULD care less”.

I have always said “I COULDN’T care less” inasmuch as it, to me, is more logical.

If you could care less, then it has at least some modicum of importance to you.

If you couldn’t care less, then it is of the absolute least possible importance to you.

Yet, for some reason, both are used interchangeably, and accepted as meaning the same thing.

 

2)    Being neither a student nor scholar in either languages in general or specifically in Latin, I would ask whether the fact that the various Latin words in question are used in a sentence written in English would have any bearing on the issue.

Would the Latin words that have entered the English language be subject to the rules of Latin Grammar or the rules of English grammar, or would a combination of correct Latin grammar and common English usage be the ultimate determinant of acceptable use?

Would this be considered to be within the guidelines for the accepted evolution of a language?

 

Good observation, and a damn good point.

I have a standard joke with a particular mate who likes wordplay.

One of us will do something for the other.

Then this is said:

"Thank you! "

"It's the least I could do"

" Oh, thanks for doing the the least you could do"....exeunt stage left.

[Mr T 189]

It's been a while since I did Latin but I thought that in Latin you could decline Greek nouns either the Latin way or the Greek way.

In English we seem to do the correct thing with French words.

[secret santa 2,384]

Although I loved the complexities of grammar and punctuation while at school, and still do so, I fear that all our pedantry will soon count for nothing.

The BBC who used to be "the" example of spoken English now litters its programmes and announcements with use of the glottal stop wherever possible and uses a pseudo-patois in order to relate to ordinary people. Among its leading stars are people like Jay Blades, seemingly a thoroughly decent chap, but one who crucifies the English language at every opportunity.

The English language is being eroded before our very eyes and ears.

[jelida 1,374]

2 hours ago, secret santa said:

 

The English language is being eroded before our very eyes and ears.

Indeed. This is the new normalcy.

Jerry

Edited February 28, 2021 by jelida

[1949threepence 3,368]

4 hours ago, secret santa said:

Although I loved the complexities of grammar and punctuation while at school, and still do so, I fear that all our pedantry will soon count for nothing.

The BBC who used to be "the" example of spoken English now litters its programmes and announcements with use of the glottal stop wherever possible and uses a pseudo-patois in order to relate to ordinary people. Among its leading stars are people like Jay Blades, seemingly a thoroughly decent chap, but one who crucifies the English language at every opportunity.

The English language is being eroded before our very eyes and ears.

Sadly the BBC is no longer the bastion of impartial reporting either. 

Moreover, whilst they would insist they were a wholly inclusive organisation, when was the last time you heard, for example, an Essex, Scouse, Birmingham, Newcastle or West Country accent among its national newsreaders? No shortage of received pronunciation or Scottish accents, but not much else. 

Edited February 28, 2021 by 1949threepence

[Paddy 1,870]

You can't even rely on the broadsheets to get it right.

Not many years ago the Daily Telegraph used "burglarise" instead of "burgle" on its front page, and I knew the end of the world was nigh!

 

[blakeyboy 1,811]

7 hours ago, jelida said:

Indeed. This is the new normalcy.

Jerry

Very good- nearly went under my radar - nearly....:)

[Peckris 2 2,194]

On 2/27/2021 at 8:01 AM, alfnail said:

When were you at Brum Chris?

Early 70s. Any particular reason for asking?

 

On 2/27/2021 at 10:59 AM, Bronze & Copper Collector said:

1)    My personal pet peeve is regarding those that say “I COULD care less”.

 

 2)    Would the Latin words that have entered the English language be subject to the rules of Latin Grammar or the rules of English grammar, or would a combination of correct Latin grammar and common English usage be the ultimate determinant of acceptable use?

 

1. Awful Americanism.

2. English grammar! It was the execrable Reverend Lowth who, in the 18th Century, "decided" that - following Latin principles - you couldn't end a sentence with a preposition, nor split an infinitive (among other things). The latter is especially ridiculous as an infinitive in Latin is a single word and therefore cannot be split anyway!

 

On 2/27/2021 at 11:10 AM, Nick said:

Personal bugbears are:

• could of rather than could have or could've

Amongst many others...

That's also one of mine. Derived from hearing "could've" and assuming what was heard was "could of".

 

On 2/27/2021 at 11:54 AM, bagerap said:

I come from probably the last generation of grammar school kids to be taught Latin and Greek as part of the standard curriculum. This possibly helped to shape my future as I went on to study language and subsequently linguistics. Latin was a constant help to me learning some of the Romance languages but Attic Greek? Not really a great deal of help in the modern world. That was until I went with my girlfriend of the time for a holiday just outside of Corinth. She worked with a Greek girl and we were to deliver a present to the Greek lasses mum in Athens. Well, it made for a nice day out and we could see a few bits of ancient architecture. This was all before the days of Google maps and all we had was an address. Written in English. Spotting a tourism kiosk, I asked if they had a street map.Voila, easy as that. Opened it up and easily found the street we were looking for. Why? Because the bloody map was in English. It was at this point that my long forgotten education kicked in as I realised that I could actually read the Greek road signs.

Didn't help much when we later met Sophia's mum, as I still hadn't mustered a single word of demotic Greek.

I remember practising my modern Greek on a ferry around the Greek islands - the barman asked me - in English - to speak English so he could understand me better!

 

On 2/28/2021 at 3:33 PM, Paddy said:

You can't even rely on the broadsheets to get it right.

Not many years ago the Daily Telegraph used "burglarise" instead of "burgle" on its front page, and I knew the end of the world was nigh!

Another Americanism. Aaaaargh.

[alfnail 873]

27 minutes ago, Peckris 2 said:

Early 70s. Any particular reason for asking?

Just wondered if you were there same time as me, but I was mid 70's, so you had probably left by then.

[Michael-Roo 783]

 

My wife, a Cambridge Phd, teaches Classics. I think it best I don't show her this thread. 'Don't get me started' doesn't come close.

[Mr T 189]

Defiantly instead of definitely too.

Any time I see the word defiantly now I assume it is incorrect.

[Paddy 1,870]

A more obscure one that I see regularly wrong in print is the difference between "loth" and "loathe".

Loth is unwilling, loathe is to hate but I have often seen "I am loathe to take that course...", even in books and respectable publications.

 

[1949threepence 3,368]

Chatting to a friend in the town center parking lot recently, and we both said how much we disliked so many Americanisms creeping in. Not to mention how badly some of the automobiles were parked. We were having a good chat, but then a call came in on my cellphone so had to stop.   

[mrbadexample 1,006]

2 minutes ago, 1949threepence said:

We were having a good chat,

Do you mean you were conversating? 

[Peckris 2 2,194]

4 hours ago, Paddy said:

A more obscure one that I see regularly wrong in print is the difference between "loth" and "loathe".

Loth is unwilling, loathe is to hate but I have often seen "I am loathe to take that course...", even in books and respectable publications.

Oh that reminds me of another one - "loose" instead of "lose" !

[secret santa 2,384]

When I was at school, reported speech always comprised a verb followed by a phrase/sentence in quotation marks, e.g. He said "Hello".

Can someone explain how the world has adopted the egregious - I'm like "Hello" and he's like "How are you doing ?"

Or perhaps one doesn't even use quotation marks - I was like yeah and he was like whoah.

Is this now being taught in schools ?

[1949threepence 3,368]

On 3/2/2021 at 4:19 PM, Peckris 2 said:

Oh that reminds me of another one - "loose" instead of "lose" !

That one drives me up the wall.

Another annoying one "your" instead of "you're".

Oh and "sort after area" (which I've seen in an estate agent's ad) instead of "sought after area".

I've never said it this way myself, but in the part of Essex I come from, the common speech parlance for "university" is "univers IT E", as in "I've got a place at univers IT E".