DNW Sale - Alan Palmer, Cleaning Guru?

[VickySilver 881]

HI all on a happy Saturday.  I was looking over the DNW coming up [again] and was [again] sadly disappointed by the cleaning on so many of the earlier Vicky half crowns and Gothic florins, not to mention Old Head Crowns. Can't take it back....I wish the collector hadn't as mostly I will pass.....

[Paulus 1,979]

27 minutes ago, VickySilver said:

HI all on a happy Saturday.  I was looking over the DNW coming up [again] and was [again] sadly disappointed by the cleaning on so many of the earlier Vicky half crowns and Gothic florins, not to mention Old Head Crowns. Can't take it back....I wish the collector hadn't as mostly I will pass.....

Yes, disappointing that so many are cleaned - I suspect they will still realise very high hammer prices, given the current market ...

[Iannich48 202]

Yes, i noticed that too. What is wrong with tone or the odd mark on an old coin? Nothing. Totally baffled by cleaning, it is so unnecessary. I will be bidding on some pennies, but not the silver.

Edited June 27, 2021 by Iannich48

[secret santa 2,374]

"cleaning" is a dangerous word - does it mean the careful removal of lumps of dirt or grease or is it the artificial enhancement of lustre ? A more descriptive word would be more useful.

[blakeyboy 1,801]

I sold some Vicky double florins last week, I thought that the 100 years of patina was by far the most attractive part of the coins.

[VickySilver 881]

Richard - his cleaning appears on the photos at least as rub, and with an abrasive cloth or some such. Spink had a sale about 4 years ago where many if not most of the coins were cleaned similarly BUT NOT MENTIONED! I purchased a few that I regret but not at high prices....

[Nonmortuus 927]

5 hours ago, VickySilver said:

Richard - his cleaning appears on the photos at least as rub, and with an abrasive cloth or some such. Spink had a sale about 4 years ago where many if not most of the coins were cleaned similarly BUT NOT MENTIONED! I purchased a few that I regret but not at high prices....

I got stung at a Spink auction as well @VickySilver. I bought a group of halfcrowns, including a 1925. It was partially my own fault as they did not show the obverse of the coins. Most were ok but the 1925 had a light X scratched on the bust. I took it as a lesson learned. It is a shame really as the 1925 is a very high grade, scratch aside.

It is a shame so many of the DNW coins are cleaned but I am glad they have flagged it before the sale.

[Sword 1,516]

On 6/27/2021 at 10:32 AM, secret santa said:

"cleaning" is a dangerous word - does it mean the careful removal of lumps of dirt or grease or is it the artificial enhancement of lustre ? A more descriptive word would be more useful.

"Clean" would imply rubbing or polishing to me. I don't think auction houses would mention previous "careful removal of lumps of dirt or grease" as they probably wouldn't know in the first place. "Of bright appearance" would imply likely dipping. 

[copper123 1,536]

Interesting to see the 1845 large date farthing lightly cleaned with an estimate of £500 -£700 I have a similar if not nicer coin in about ef with no cleaning , I always thought it was worth £350 -£400 seems I might have been wrong

Edited June 28, 2021 by copper123

[jaggy 528]

If the description says cleaned then I won't touch the coin. Unfortunately, not all auction houses and not all auctions offer an accurate description of the coin and often the photography doesn't show up flaws. Increasingly, I will only bid if the coin is certified NGC or PCGS as I have been 'burned' too many times. Not an absolute guarantee, of course, but better than the description or photo. It's a shame that it has come to this.

Edited June 29, 2021 by jaggy

[Peckris 2 2,163]

On 6/28/2021 at 11:25 AM, Nonmortuus said:

I got stung at a Spink auction as well @VickySilver. I bought a group of halfcrowns, including a 1925. It was partially my own fault as they did not show the obverse of the coins. Most were ok but the 1925 had a light X scratched on the bust. I took it as a lesson learned. It is a shame really as the 1925 is a very high grade, scratch aside.

It is a shame so many of the DNW coins are cleaned but I am glad they have flagged it before the sale.

I picked up a 1925 halfcrown that had been seriously rubbed - GF/GVF from Warwick in the 90s. But as it only cost me £6 I didn't worry too much about it. Still is my 1925 until I get a better.

 

Edited June 29, 2021 by Peckris 2

[VickySilver 881]

I guess maybe if you are there in person and can see it "in hand".  That is a nice price Peck...

[Peckris 2 2,163]

On 6/30/2021 at 12:47 AM, VickySilver said:

I guess maybe if you are there in person and can see it "in hand".  That is a nice price Peck...

the 1925 in the DNW sale may be a better grade but it's no great shakes and is part of a 4 halfcrown lot.

[1949threepence 3,368]

On 6/29/2021 at 3:43 PM, jaggy said:

If the description says cleaned then I won't touch the coin. Unfortunately, not all auction houses and not all auctions offer an accurate description of the coin and often the photography doesn't show up flaws. Increasingly, I will only bid if the coin is certified NGC or PCGS as I have been 'burned' too many times. Not an absolute guarantee, of course, but better than the description or photo. It's a shame that it has come to this.

It would have to be extremely rare for me to do so. Ironically enough I have noticed more times than co-incidence would accommodate, that a very rare coin on offer has indeed been cleaned at some point. 

Although you often read "sometime cleaned, now retoning", surely the tell tale signs would still be there 100 years later.

Edited July 2, 2021 by 1949threepence

[VickySilver 881]

I would say that I agree but have occasionally made exception(s). About 16+ years ago, I bought the superb and very rare currency 1839 Halfcrown from Glens that was sold as EF "with light hairlines and cleaned some time in the past". Because of rarity and having one Colin Cooke to look at it, I bought it with him as agent - this coin even under severe magnification and lighting showed no hairlines and nothing but original and pleasantly toned surfaces. I would imagine the coin would be likely as nice as one could ever find, including museums.

Moral: you can luck up on occasion but do your research and if the coin is worthy do what you can to see it in hand or have someone trusted to have a good look.

[Peckris 2 2,163]

There's much controversy about cleaning. I once bid on an 1887 silver set that a dealer there said he wouldn't touch "it's been cleaned". What I'd seen was coins with a mirror finish, and some people it seems can't tell the difference and categorise any old silver coin without toning as "cleaned". They aren’t, always.

[Sword 1,516]

On 7/3/2021 at 1:37 PM, VickySilver said:

I would say that I agree but have occasionally made exception(s). About 16+ years ago, I bought the superb and very rare currency 1839 Halfcrown from Glens that was sold as EF "with light hairlines and cleaned some time in the past". Because of rarity and having one Colin Cooke to look at it, I bought it with him as agent - this coin even under severe magnification and lighting showed no hairlines and nothing but original and pleasantly toned surfaces. I would imagine the coin would be likely as nice as one could ever find, including museums.

Moral: you can luck up on occasion but do your research and if the coin is worthy do what you can to see it in hand or have someone trusted to have a good look.

Why did Glens mention hairlines when there are in fact none? If it was a mistake, then why didn't the vendor object? Well done in acquiring it in any case. :-) 

Also, that was 16 years ago when standards were higher. The phrase "cleaned with hairlines" has a somewhat different meaning today...

[VickySilver 881]

I think those may have been die polish marks - the piece is graded PCGS 64 (may be under graded at that?)  and very colourful with real and natural toning - not a coin I could touch nowadays. The apparent marks on the rim are from the original planchet. Colin Cooke very much was enthusiastic about the coin and I still am. These days I have to plan VERY carefully on purchases.

This is coin # 121002 on the PCGS site.

[Sword 1,516]

Stunning.

[VickySilver 881]

Many thanks, and truly one of my favourite coins of the collection. The problem with getting such coins is that you try mostly unsuccessfully to match it with others in the series.

[oldcopper 286]

17 hours ago, VickySilver said:

I think those may have been die polish marks - the piece is graded PCGS 64 (may be under graded at that?)  and very colourful with real and natural toning - not a coin I could touch nowadays. The apparent marks on the rim are from the original planchet. Colin Cooke very much was enthusiastic about the coin and I still am. These days I have to plan VERY carefully on purchases.

This is coin # 121002 on the PCGS site.

Do you think these milled edge pieces were struck from spent proof dies? That makes more sense to me than specially making a die to strike only a handful of coins.

Although you can't see any hairlines on your coin, there might be some very faint die polish lines if it was struck with a proof die. Perhaps that's what Glens picked up at a certain angle of light.

Edited July 6, 2021 by oldcopper

[VickySilver 881]

I suppose that is possible however under magnification the surfaces just don't look prooflike, or at least like any I have seen as there is a roughness to the devices and fields that does not look prooflike, and of course the edges do not. I've a number of Vicky half crowns as you might guess and does not look prooflike. I have not held other 1839 currency specimens so can't speak for them though.

[PWA 1967 2,213]

Unless the cleaning is blatantly obvious its going to be an opinion and what i might think is cleaned someone else not and vice-versa.

The more people think it is cleaned the less buyers you will have when you come to re-sell it and if a dealer thinks it is cleaned then not going to offer as much ,if anything at all for one single coin.Auctioneers will often let the buyers decide(buyers opinion ) and why Erics point of getting a second opinion from someone who can see it in hand is so important ,especially if its a coin thats going to cost a few quid.You dont want to pay a lot for something that others may not agree with in the future. There are thousands of coins bought and sold every year that SOME people may think are cleaned or alternatively not (especially from a picture ) ,thousands of coins are rejected by a TPG because there opinion was the coin was cleaned ,i am sure most if not all are (broken out) in someones collection and the buyer happy.

Make your own opinion by learning the tell tale signs is important ,let someone else look at in hand or just leave it alone if you cant form your own opinion before spending good money at auction.

Auctions though such as the DNW one mentioned  i take my hat off too ,as they have a strong opinion that the coin / coins are cleaned and if you buy them and then not happy its your own daft fault.

I would bet money that almost everyone IMO 😀 has a cleaned coin in there pre-decimal collection which wont make much difference to the value ,but if you dont learn the signs it could be easy to have a boxfull that a high percentage of buyers dont want due to a different opinion.

My opinion only 😀 

[1949threepence 3,368]

Anybody been following the DNW auction today?

It's been a tad disappointing price wise. Many of the coins, some really nice I thought, have gone unsold, including a superb Freeman 7, and predominantly the lots were going for inside their estimates. The auctioneer had to tempt the room (yes, back in the room now) and the internet with a sub estimate starting price, on a number of occasions.

I won my two lots easily, well inside the bids, and seemingly unopposed. Although there may have been a couple or so pre auction bids. 

That said, the Alan Palmer collection sold much better than the coins that followed.

 

Edited July 6, 2021 by 1949threepence
typo's

[VickySilver 881]

I agree, and think that there were not a lot of "marquee" top line coins to draw interest. I almost bid on the 1892 slabbed florin but left it alone and only went to 850 on the '75H penny as it would have taken at least 950 (prob. 1k) to take it which would have made it 1250 total or so - pass.

I hope I am wrong but it seems that proof gold pre-decimal in "uber" condition have taken over as far as value and prices fetched. I just can not give them their due I guess, but they really are not too interesting - not that I would turn down an Una if given me!